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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
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    New Milford NJ
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    Default Bed Room No Heat

    One of my bedrooms baseboard is not heating. As a matter of fact, the entire second floor takes a while to heat up with the last room not heating good at all. I received a reply that my psi may be low. I checked and this is true 6 to 8 psi. THANK YOU. I guess you know my next question, how do I raise it, or will I have to call somebody. Is there an adjustment on the vale ???
    Last edited by wvazquew; 11-28-2008 at 10:32 PM. Reason: Forgot to ask about the valve adjustment.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    556

    Default Re: Bed Room No Heat

    wvazquew:

    Yes, there is an adjustment on the valve, but first try one or two preliminaries.

    This is the PRESSURE REDUCING VALVE, which is near the boiler---they have an automatic refill feature which will usually keep the pressure at the standard value of 12 psi---this can be read on the boiler gauge.


    Sometimes someone shuts off the cold water supply near the boiler going to this valve & consequently the boiler water pressure may drop to say, 8 psi, or lower---so check & make sure the house cold water supply going into the valve is ON.

    Also check for any leaks around the boiler and associated piping.

    If you hear water flowing into the boiler now, see if the gauge goes up to 12 psi by itself---also open the bleed valves in the bedroom & see if you can get any water to come out---close each bleed valve after each check.

    If nothing happens, gently tap the bottom of the PRESSURE REDUCING VALVE with the handle of a screwdriver several times---sometimes a small amount of crud will accumulate inside, preventing the valve from functioning.

    If the pressure still doesn't go up, shut down the boiler temporarily by flicking the on/off switch & go to the next step.

    To see a photo of this valve go to the Bell-Gossett site below, click onto "homeowner" at the right of the page, then scroll down & click onto "valves", then scroll down & click onto "pressure reducing valve", then scroll down & click onto "tutorial".

    The valve can be adjusted for more pressure by turning the screw at the very top of the valve CLOCKWISE for more pressure, and COUNTER CLOCKWISE for less pressure.

    The water pressure gauge should read 12 psi when the boiler is cold, and no more than 25 when the boiler is at full heat.

    It will take some time (often several days) to tweak the screwdriver adjustment on this valve to get the psi needle within the 12-25 range.

    The formula for how many feet you need to feed the bedroom baseboard is 1 psi= 2.31 feet.

    Thus 2.31 X 12 psi = 28 ft.--if your upstairs baseboards are slightly higher than 28 ft above the height of the boiler, you'll need closer to 15 psi on the gauge.

    Once you get 12 psi on the boiler gauge, you'll have to go up to the 2nd floor & bleed the baseboard until water comes out.

    http://www.bellgossett.com
    Last edited by NashuaTech; 11-29-2008 at 11:41 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Milford NJ
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Bed Room No Heat

    Thank you so mutch you definately know your heating. I did what you suggested and was able to raise the psi to 15 like you said. The baseboard is getting hot water and warming up. This may sound crazy but there are NO bleeding valves throughout my "baseboard" heating. I don't have Radiators. I'll give it a couple of days like you said to pinpoint the psi. The room in question is the last one of the run. All the other rooms heat up nicely, could it be not heating up like the others because it's the last room ? I noticed that I could not touch the suply line (in the basement)when hot but I could grab the retun line. Thanks again !
    Walter
    Last edited by wvazquew; 11-30-2008 at 12:06 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    556

    Default Re: Bed Room No Heat

    Walter,

    Good. Glad to see your heat is restored.

    I still don't know too much about your system.

    It is common on some systems not to have bleed valves at the baseboard---but look closely---remove the metal end caps and look good at the piping.

    If there are vents at the baseboard, it's a lot easier to get the air out of the piping when the time comes.

    If you can hear the water flowing in the pipes (or gurgling) when the system is running--there's air in the pipes---this can cause heating problems for the upper convectors, and be the reason for the lack of heat---all the heat you need when it's colder won't be delivered if there's air in the system.

    I wonder how it got down to 8 psi--this often indicates a leak somewhere---check the walls directly under the 2nd floor baseboard to see if there is any wet spotting---also the ceiling.

    If it's a minor leak, they often "repair themselves"---the calcium salts in the water often cake over the leak.

    Yes, being the last baseboard on the run, the water is often the coolest---but air pockets usually form at the highest point in the system, which would be the bedroom baseboards.

    Often, the expansion tank & air eliminator at the cellar piping around the boiler is not doing its job, or the 1/2" pipe going from the boiler (or supply main) to the expansion tank is not delivering air bubbles to the tank, like it should---any photos you can post would be appreciated.

    Do you have for an expansion tank a steel tank lodged between the ceiling floor joists in the boiler room above the boiler??

    This is the type usually associated with no air vents at the baseboards.

    There is often an air eliminator or spirovent somewhere on the main supply piping (the hot side).

    The expansion tank may be on the verge of being "waterlogged" if air bubbles aren't reaching it.

    Your system may have "purge valves" on the return mains that are used to manually flush the air out (instead of air vents)---the idea is to temporarily shut down the system & use the purge handle to close off the main, open up a side hose connection on the side portion of the valve, & allow the air-filled water to flow into a plastic trash barrel to get rid of the air---a picture of such a purge valve is at the site below (the one pictured doesn't have a regular garden hose connection---if you have one, it no doubt has such a hose connection).

    Has the boiler had its annual service work performed???? ---this is very important to getting the most heat for your fuel dollars.

    The possible problems mentioned are all minor--- thy can usually be easily fixed---let us know if you have any subsequent problems.

    http://www.webstonevalvespurgetee.blogspot.com/
    Last edited by NashuaTech; 11-30-2008 at 11:05 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Milford NJ
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Bed Room No Heat

    I don't see air valves in the baseboards. I looked like you said.
    Yes, I do have an air tank (about 2 gal.)one foot above the boiler not in the joist and yes there is two hose type valves, I guess to empty the system. The tank has a valve with a tire type air valve attached to it. I'll try to get some pictures up. This room has been like this since the original installation (two zone heating)of the addition on the house. My Son started to close the bedroom door to sleep and the issue came up. I guess with the door open all those years (5) the room warmed up with the house heat. You are right, I have not had it serviced for some time.
    I'll take the pictures tonight. It's suppose to get cold here in NJ starting Friday, so we'll see how it heats up.

    Have a good night.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    556

    Default Re: Bed Room No Heat

    Bingo, Walter---you just hit the jackpot!

    The expansion tank you mention is known as an Amtrol 30 Extrol (or similar)---this is an improved style of expansion tank that often replaces an older style (picture below).

    This type of ET should definitely have bleeder air vents installed at the highest point (the bedroom baseboard)---it's an easy procedure if you want to attempt it.

    Can you solder copper tubing--if not, do you want to learn???

    A Nibco 705 baseboard tee (photo) w/vent is installed on each one of the baseboard ends with a little bleed valve screwed into the 1/8" elbow tap---since all system air gravitates to the upper level, it's an easy matter to get all the air out.

    It's a good idea to check the expansion tank---there might possibly be a pinhole leak inside that might be the source of the drop in psi.

    Simple check is to remove any protective plastic cap from the schrader valve (regular car tire-type valve) & quickly bump the little needle valve with your thumbnail & quickly let go.

    You'll get a short blast of air---and possibly some moisture.

    If you get any moisture, there's a pinhole leak between the water part of the inside tank and the air part of the inside tank.

    Let me know how you make out on this.

    http://www.drillspot.com/products/75...expansion_tank

    http://www.drillspot.com/products/88..._baseboard_tee
    Last edited by NashuaTech; 12-03-2008 at 10:51 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Milford NJ
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Bed Room No Heat

    NT here are the pictures I said I would take. I will look for the Nibco 705 you sent me and check the air tank like you instructed. I myself may have lowered the psi because I recall messing with the tank and air valve a while back. I don't think I have leaks but I will check. Yes I can solder and much more.
    I attached the fotos. Hopefully you can see them. Computers I'm not that great at !!
    I will let you how I do with the homework you sent me LOL.
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Milford NJ
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Bed Room No Heat

    NT I did not find any Nibco 705 elbow valves. The tire type valve on the tank when depress WATER rushed out. No Air! Also whe I depressed the Air valve above the tank (pic #23) water also came out but first a bit of air came out. Don't know much about the technicalities but I guess an Air tank should not be filled with water ?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    556

    Default Re: Bed Room No Heat

    Hi Walt,

    The pictures are nice & clear!

    The behavior of the air valve you mention in photo 23 is normal---it is designed to automatically remove air then close when water comes out.

    Bad news on the expansion tank---generally, they last 5 years or so-- luckily they cost only $25-$30 to replace.

    Best price would probably be at a local plumbing supply house--I've even seen them in a lot of HD/Lowe's, especially HD, especially in the Northeast; they're made by Amtrol, Watts & others; they're all designated #30 & all will fit your system; all are pre-charged to 12 psi.

    The way they're constructed inside is that there's a neophrene bladder in the middle--the tank is charged with 12 psi of air when new.

    The function of an ET is based on the fact that boiler water expands 5% when heated---in a typical system that holds 15 gallons, that means system water expands about a gallon, or so.

    That would cause pressure problems, so the ET, with its 1/2 bladder of flexible air, will absorb most of the expansion & the system pressure will stay below 30 psi.

    If the bladder springs a leak (as yours has) the tank will eventually completely fill with water & lose its absorbing ability.

    Then, as the system heats up the increased water has nowhere to go, so it forces open the PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE & about a quart of water, or less spills on the boiler room floor (no big deal).

    (I can't see the pressure relief valve in the photos, it's probably behind some of the piping---you can go back to the Bell-Gossett site & view a photo of this valve).

    It would be a good idea to put a pail under the tube discharge of the PRV so water doesn't get all over the floor (the valve automatically closes by itself when 1/2 quart or so of water is discharged during a heating cycle).

    Story short, the ET will have to be replaced!

    Unfortunately, I don't see any isolating valve between the ET and the main pipe, which would allow you to replace the ET without draining the system.

    The red-handled and yellow-handled large ball valves on the main piping when closed would probably contain most of the water in the piping, & the procedure would be to shut down the boiler (on/off switch), shut off the cold water inlet & open the boiler drain until the water stopped flowing.

    It shouldn't take more that 15-20 minutes for the water to drain--the ET could then be removed by loosening the bracket end & spinning it off by hand (be careful it's heavy when full of water); teflon tape is wound clockwise on the new ET male screw-on fitting & it is simply spun on to the piping & tightened by hand & secured to the bracket on the other end.

    Let me know what you decide on this & I'll be available if you decide to diy.
    Last edited by NashuaTech; 12-05-2008 at 12:22 AM.

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