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  1. #21
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    Aug 2007
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    Denver, CO
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    666

    Default Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

    All it is, is sad.............

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    612

    Default Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

    Quote Originally Posted by kentvw View Post

    I wish I had kept a file of your classic posts of hate from years ago...........
    Hey Kent....My all time favorite (so far) was the post on the old board by the "brother" telling us of her untimely demise while directing recovery efforts for Katrina victims while a special Oprah episode was documenting it all. Oprah's film crew had to be shoo'ed out of the way while she gave directions from the stretcher that was carrying her to the hospital for "the last scene" (or some such nonsense). It was the hardest I have ever laughed at an ****** posting.

    Although I did save it at the time, it was on a computer that has since croaked. There is a good chance that it was saved on some backup zip drive (remember them!!) but recovering it would take more effort than its worth! The memory of it all is enough for me!!

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    731

    Default Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

    Quote Originally Posted by sabo4545 View Post
    Hopefully this will lay this issue to rest. This is directly from the Onix installation manual (which it sounds like the original poster has Onix and not Pex because it is a direct staple up and did not use the heat transfer plates).

    You can view the entire installation manual at

    http://www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/Onix...tionManual.pdf

    Frame Floors
    Introduction
    Of all the radiant applications, frame
    floors offer the most installation flexibility.
    Over 80% of all residential radiant
    projects have at least one form of a
    frame installation. Of these, the
    Staple-Up
    application is the most
    common.
    Frame floor projects allow for easy
    installation of a radiant system, for
    new construction or renovation. Even
    though some installation details vary
    from application to application, basic
    design considerations remain the same.
    The most important goal is to make
    sure the Onix is in direct contact with
    the subfloor.
    The second most important detail for a
    Staple-Up
    application is to properly
    install foil-faced batt insulation below
    the tubing. If a non-foil-faced insulation
    is used,
    the system may operate
    with a 25% loss of maximum heat
    output and some (smaller) loss of efficiency.

    Other insulation can be used
    instead of a fiberglass batt, however,
    certain cautions need to be observed.
    1. Tight seal.
    One of the largest areas
    of heat loss with any underfloor
    application is convective loss
    through the band joists and other
    perimeter areas. The tighter the
    joist cavity, the better the system
    will perform.

    2. Foil Face.
    The foil on the
    insulation will ensure most of the
    heat and energy coming from the
    tubing is reflected up to the subfloor
    where it is distributed. The
    foil also spreads the heat out over
    the subfloor. This in turn reduces
    what has been called thermal striping.

    3. Air Gap.
    A 2"4" air gap is necessary
    between the tubing and the
    insulation. This air gap helps
    increase the effective R-value of
    the insulation while fully optimizing
    the ability of the foil insulation.
    The main goal is to keep the tubing
    from coming into contact with the
    insulation. If contact is made, energy
    is no longer reflected upwards,
    but rather, is conducted downward.
    This can reduce the effective heating
    of the floor by 10% to 20%,
    depending on the load conditions
    and thickness of insulation.

    4. R-Value.
    As a rule of thumb, an RValue
    of at least 4 times higher
    than the floor is desired. For most
    indoor conditions, an R-13, or a
    3-1/2" batt should be used. When
    installing over an unheated area,
    exposed area or crawlspace, a
    minimum R-19 or 6" batt should
    be used.

    Design Parameters
    With any new or renovation project, it
    See Mike? when they're found out and completly WRONG they can't admit it, and start off topic attacks and smears. No wonder of canuk's over 2,000 posts less than a third are on topic and more than half are nasty rants. it is no wonder that 95 percent of those that join NEVER RETURN to this site.

    SO SAD for POOR BEV.

  4. #24
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    Aug 2007
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    Default Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

    http://www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/Onix...tionManual.pdf

    Check out page 30 .... it would seem to illustrate an alternative system for under floor application where the insulation is in direct contact with the Onix.

    Oh ..... and page 6 has some interesting reading.
    "" an ounce of perception -- a pound of obscure "
    - Rush

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    731

    Default Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

    Quote Originally Posted by canuk View Post
    http://www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/Onix...tionManual.pdf

    Check out page 30 .... it would seem to illustrate an alternative system for under floor application where the insulation is in direct contact with the Onix.

    Oh ..... and page 6 has some interesting reading.
    No that's not true on page 30 of the document (page 32 of 84 of the pdf file). the middle of the page diagram is for a SANDWICH OVER SLAB installation not what Bev is doing.

    This is a working link: http://www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/Onix...tionManual.pdf

    The lower diagram on that same page is for an under a framed floor installation which is not stapled up the sub floor was torn out to install it from above and it has a gap between the insulation and the onyx and the onyx is supported by a chicken wire sling to the subfloor.

    your argument is not supported. why would you endeavor to have bev's system loose 25% or more of its efficiency, especially after going to the expense and time to insulate - malicious?

  6. #26
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    Aug 2007
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    Default Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue RidgeParkway View Post
    No that's not true on page 30 of the document (page 32 of 84 of the pdf file). the middle of the page diagram is for a SANDWICH OVER SLAB installation not what Bev is doing.

    This is a working link: http://www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/Onix...tionManual.pdf

    The lower diagram on that same page is for an under a framed floor installation which is not stapled up the sub floor was torn out to install it from above and it has a gap between the insulation and the onyx and the onyx is supported by a chicken wire sling to the subfloor.

    your argument is not supported. why would you endeavor to have bev's system loose 25% or more of its efficiency, especially after going to the expense and time to insulate - malicious?

    This link Mike provided should work

    Look at page 30 again ..... "Other Frame Floor Techniques"
    You will see the description and NO it's not for a SANDWICH OVER SLAB installation .

    .... and speaking of malicious ..... dear old Blue
    Last edited by canuk; 11-30-2008 at 06:15 PM.
    "" an ounce of perception -- a pound of obscure "
    - Rush

  7. #27
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    Aug 2007
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    The Great White North
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    Default Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

    Oh and don't forget to read page 6.

    Also toward the bottom of page 2

    PLEASE NOTE:

    This manual only covers installation of Watts Radiant’s
    Onix hose, and should not be used for the installation of
    our cross-linked polyethylene products, RadiantPEX and WaterPEX.
    Last edited by canuk; 11-30-2008 at 06:24 PM.
    "" an ounce of perception -- a pound of obscure "
    - Rush

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fayette County, Ohio
    Posts
    5,557

    Default Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

    Rather than all these petty arguments wouldn't it make more sense to ask the OP to tell us if they have PEX or Onix (at least a description) and if it is just tubing stapled to the sub-floor or if they have transfer plates stapled to the sub-floor? Quoting the installation instructions for one brand amd ignoring others when we don't know what they have is a futile waste of time.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  9. #29
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    Aug 2007
    Location
    The Great White North
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    Default Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

    Quote Originally Posted by JLMCDANIEL View Post
    Rather than all these petty arguments wouldn't it make more sense to ask the OP to tell us if they have PEX or Onix (at least a description) and if it is just tubing stapled to the sub-floor or if they have transfer plates stapled to the sub-floor? Quoting the installation instructions for one brand amd ignoring others when we don't know what they have is a futile waste of time.
    Jack
    Agree with you .
    "" an ounce of perception -- a pound of obscure "
    - Rush

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    731

    Default Re: Radiant heat stapled to subfloor

    Jack,

    yep and i did so back on #3 & 5 and pointed out nowhere did the OP say, nor does her post imply PEX. not to mention her post is quite clear it was a staple up to the subfloor and she mentions joists and insulating below. She makes no mention of needing or having diffuser plates or clips. IT ALSO COULD BE STAPLE UP ELECTRIC RADIANT it MAY NOT EVEN BE AN HYDRONIC HEAT SYSTEM, re-read the original post! unlike canuk and Nashua Tech read the post completely and didn't ASSUME ANYTHING.


    Quote Originally Posted by canuk View Post
    This link Mike provided should work

    Look at page 30 again ..... "Other Frame Floor Techniques"
    You will see the description and NO it's not for a SANDWICH OVER SLAB installation .

    .... and speaking of malicious ..... dear old Blue

    and canuk still can't read page 30 so arguing with him is futile. cuz that first diagram IS an OVER THE SLAB install and that's the ONLY diagram on that page that has any insulation contact to the onyx IS A SANDWICH INSTALL and it (rigid board insulation) is being used to SUPPORT the onyx and it IS a framed over slab SANDWICH install being diagramed in that illustration not a staple up retrofit to a framed floor. the canuk can't realize the first column of pg 30 is continuing the third column from page 29 and that the first diagram on pg 30 the only one showing any insulation contact on the bottom of the onyx but NOT the sides IS A SANDWICH INSTALL on joists over slab he just has to LOOK AT IT AND READ THE SECTION OF THE MANUAL IT PERTAINS TO. radiant under frame floor either of the three types same thing difference is the minimum recommended clearance.
    Last edited by Blue RidgeParkway; 11-30-2008 at 09:24 PM.

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