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  1. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    19

    Default Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

    We deal with the google experts on the amcforum.com
    Real world experience counts more........... and those with track experience typically blow away those who only read about building fast cars. Nothing beats your time slip. And I'll pit my pre 1985 auto experience against anyone. I was simply the best there was in this state.

    OK, so I come for opinions on finishing the "loft" (fine, call it the upstairs or second story if that feels better) and I get told how poorly the building was made on the lower level and how that was done all wrong as far as walls and insulation (based on pdf files.
    Nope. Sorry - that may be by-the-book from companies, What is in mine, well, that's standard building practice - how it's really done in the field on a wood frame pole building. I've never seen a wood pole building used for garage, shop or business done differently than how that lower or main level was done on mine. As an ex-farmer, I've been in a few "pole buildings" and won't apologise for how the lower level of my building was made. Insulation does not get put over the posts around these parts. The insulation goes between, then a vapor barrier, then the steel inside. I've yet to see insulation also put over the posts/poles on a wood building in this state. I guess I liken it to a wood framed house built of 2/4's. Do you insulate the studs, too? No, vapor barrier, then sheetrock. Houses 20 years old have nothing but cheap plywood or fiberboard material on the outside, the stud, then sheetrock inside and insulation is put BETWEEN the studs - the studs themselves are only 3.5" wide and are not insulatecd.
    Even the metal shop building I worked in for many years while I was a mechanic - all steel construction, was insulated between the steel frame members, they were exposed. There was a thin piece of insulation between the frame and outer walls, but then that was STEEL frame and that conducts the heat energy much more effeciently than 6" wood posts. So I figure this is insulated better than any house around here.

    I'm not a building engineer, but here's my experience:
    I've held a maintenance electricians license in the city of Ankeny.
    I was in charge of all buildings and grounds and related projects at On With Life while I was "systems and facilities manager" under the president/ceo of OWL. I worked with the construction companies on the punch lists and any issues during construction.
    I designed and tested the computers used in the control systems sold by Compressor Controls Corp. (also in charge of network and building security)
    When I was between jobs, I passed the State of Iowa building "maintenance engineer" test with a 90% (however was not selected which was really ok, I guess)
    I've worked as an electrician's assistant.
    1975 state champion Plymouth Troubleshooting contest, set record for fastest time in the practical part, highest written score on the written exam. 14th place in nationals. Was offered, and turned down, job as service manager at Iowa's largest AMC/Jeep/Chrysler dealership of that time.

    I pick things up quickly. I'm a visual learner and once I see something, I'm pretty much there.

    In this building project like any other, there are at times comprimises in order to simply get done and be within budget. Although we'd recently sold a very solid buisiness so had a little cash to work with (a buisness which we took from nothing up to the 2nd highest grossing quilt store in central Iowa in under 3 years, and which in less than the first year, blew away the PO's projections for us) taxes, etc. took a fair chunk and we wanted some of that for retirement. I got only so much of it to work with.
    The building was drawn and designed by me in very rough form (dimensions, shape, concepts) and had to stay within county limits on height, etc. I wanted a shop/garage, Barbara wanted a barn. So I drew her a barn I could use.
    The final design was done by a Pella firm who specs and puts up many dozens of buildings each year and was built by one of their 4 or 5 crews - a crew I asked for specifically due to their reputation. The trusses were specced by the buisiness in Pella based on my wanting a wood working shop upstairs, finished and heated, with my power tools up there. Even though it's the cheap Craftsman stuff, it does ok for my piddling. I'm no Norm Abram, I don't have 27 routers and a $2,000 table saw. Mine was $99.95.
    The builders themselves are an Amish crew with great pride in their work, they don't cheat, lie, steal, smoke or drink on the job (if ever!) or cut corners. The punch list, such as it were, consisted of one single item, which they resolved in 5 minutes before they even left the site.

    Now if there are true problems, yeah, sure, I'd want to know..... but based on experience. See, at work, in fact, each job, me with no certificates on the wall am the one doing the jobs of the certified engineers. I've worked with Microsoft, Novell and Cisco certified administrators and engineers, and they seem to come to ME to get the job done........ so I value experience more than paper.

    Anyone who can say "I've seen that before, and we've seen where it leads to this or that" I'm all ears. I do appreciate advice and opinions and that is what I came here for, but I value real-world experiences most, that's why I didn't ask in a car forum or a quilting forum..........

    However, when someone comes in to ask us about an engine problem, we try to shy away from "who did that awful paint job".

    Sorry for the rant! It's been a BAD couple weeks, nationally, job-wise, and I've been a week with a BAD headcold in the sinuses and throat.............. and my head hurts.

    (and I must have missed where it said that a double vapor barrier was a bad thing......)

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The Great White North
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

    Bill ... this may be a late .... but welcome to the forum.

    Obviously based on your summary you are competent in your understanding things .... for most of the regulars there is really no need for anyone to justify their qualifications to us. For the most part we usually can gage the person's understanding and adjust our discussion to whatever level.

    Unfortunately this thread was destined to deteriorate because of a certain individual who has the need to distract the topic with their own agenda ........ your experience with administering a web-site, I'm sure you've encountered these types of folks before.

    There is a history of this type of situation where a certain member would completely disrupt threads to the point of escalating into an all out flame war. Eventually that individual would be banned from the forum then mysteriously someone with a new user name would appear doing the same thing .... despite that person denying they are indeed the same person as the previously banned member .... strangely having the identical character traits.

    You have some good information coming from some members and hopefully you guys can continue to sort things out .... for me I gave up a couple of pages ago.


    Cheers.
    "" an ounce of perception -- a pound of obscure "
    - Rush

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    6,616

    Default Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

    No need for explanations Bill (though it was nice getting to know you better ). What was most amazing was your ability to keep a level head while someone kept hammering away at all things irrelevant. Kudo's, you passed, you get to stay.
    I suffer from CDO ... Its like OCD, but in alphabetical order, LIKE IT SHOULD BE!!!

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fayette County, Ohio
    Posts
    5,622

    Default Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

    Bill, having built pole barns for Ag use, it was quite obvious that your structure was not "standard" and we all should have taken your word that the "loft" was constructed as you stated to be finished as a shop. I wish you well and many years of enjoyment in your new barn, garage, detached building, domicile modified addition or what ever it is called in the wonderful word of Google and that you get plenty of shop time in your loft, upper room, upstairs, or what ever.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    980

    Default Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

    and peace fell upon all the land




    of course we know that when you close the cover of the book its back to reality, like a bad meal they always return on you and seem worse the second time around

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    980

    Default Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

    [quote=BillD;41680]We deal with the google experts on the amcforum.com
    Real world experience counts more........... and those with track experience typically blow away those who only read about building fast cars. Nothing beats your time slip. And I'll pit my pre 1985 auto experience against anyone. I was simply the best there was in this state.

    OK, so I come for opinions on finishing the "loft" (fine, call it the upstairs or second story if that feels better) and I get told how poorly the building was made on the lower level and how that was done all wrong as far as walls and insulation (based on pdf files.
    Nope. Sorry - that may be by-the-book from companies, What is in mine, well, that's standard building practice - how it's really done in the field on a wood frame pole building. I've never seen a wood pole building used for garage, shop or business done differently than how that lower or main level was done on mine. As an ex-farmer, I've been in a few "pole buildings" and won't apologise for how the lower level of my building was made. Insulation does not get put over the posts around these parts. The insulation goes between, then a vapor barrier, then the steel inside. I've yet to see insulation also put over the posts/poles on a wood building in this state. I guess I liken it to a wood framed house built of 2/4's. Do you insulate the studs, too? No, vapor barrier, then sheetrock. Houses 20 years old have nothing but cheap plywood or fiberboard material on the outside, the stud, then sheetrock inside and insulation is put BETWEEN the studs - the studs themselves are only 3.5" wide and are not insulatecd.
    Even the metal shop building I worked in for many years while I was a mechanic - all steel construction, was insulated between the steel frame members, they were exposed. There was a thin piece of insulation between the frame and outer walls, but then that was STEEL frame and that conducts the heat energy much more effeciently than 6" wood posts. So I figure this is insulated better than any house around here.

    I'm not a building engineer, but here's my experience:
    I've held a maintenance electricians license in the city of Ankeny.
    I was in charge of all buildings and grounds and related projects at On With Life while I was "systems and facilities manager" under the president/ceo of OWL. I worked with the construction companies on the punch lists and any issues during construction.
    I designed and tested the computers used in the control systems sold by Compressor Controls Corp. (also in charge of network and building security)
    When I was between jobs, I passed the State of Iowa building "maintenance engineer" test with a 90% (however was not selected which was really ok, I guess)
    I've worked as an electrician's assistant.
    1975 state champion Plymouth Troubleshooting contest, set record for fastest time in the practical part, highest written score on the written exam. 14th place in nationals. Was offered, and turned down, job as service manager at Iowa's largest AMC/Jeep/Chrysler dealership of that time.

    I pick things up quickly. I'm a visual learner and once I see something, I'm pretty much there.

    In this building project like any other, there are at times comprimises in order to simply get done and be within budget. Although we'd recently sold a very solid buisiness so had a little cash to work with (a buisness which we took from nothing up to the 2nd highest grossing quilt store in central Iowa in under 3 years, and which in less than the first year, blew away the PO's projections for us) taxes, etc. took a fair chunk and we wanted some of that for retirement. I got only so much of it to work with.
    The building was drawn and designed by me in very rough form (dimensions, shape, concepts) and had to stay within county limits on height, etc. I wanted a shop/garage, Barbara wanted a barn. So I drew her a barn I could use.
    The final design was done by a Pella firm who specs and puts up many dozens of buildings each year and was built by one of their 4 or 5 crews - a crew I asked for specifically due to their reputation. The trusses were specced by the buisiness in Pella based on my wanting a wood working shop upstairs, finished and heated, with my power tools up there. Even though it's the cheap Craftsman stuff, it does ok for my piddling. I'm no Norm Abram, I don't have 27 routers and a $2,000 table saw. Mine was $99.95.
    The builders themselves are an Amish crew with great pride in their work, they don't cheat, lie, steal, smoke or drink on the job (if ever!) or cut corners. The punch list, such as it were, consisted of one single item, which they resolved in 5 minutes before they even left the site.

    Now if there are true problems, yeah, sure, I'd want to know..... but based on experience. See, at work, in fact, each job, me with no certificates on the wall am the one doing the jobs of the certified engineers. I've worked with Microsoft, Novell and Cisco certified administrators and engineers, and they seem to come to ME to get the job done........ so I value experience more than paper.

    Anyone who can say "I've seen that before, and we've seen where it leads to this or that" I'm all ears. I do appreciate advice and opinions and that is what I came here for, but I value real-world experiences most, that's why I didn't ask in a car forum or a quilting forum..........

    However, when someone comes in to ask us about an engine problem, we try to shy away from "who did that awful paint job".

    Sorry for the rant! It's been a BAD couple weeks, nationally, job-wise, and I've been a week with a BAD headcold in the sinuses and throat.............. and my head hurts.

    (and I must have missed where it said that a double vapor barrier was a bad thing......)[/quote]
    I can't say it is especially since they sell a completely incased insulation just the normal yellow insulation in a giant bag basicaly

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    731

    Default Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

    Quote Originally Posted by BillD View Post
    Anyone who can say "I've seen that before, and we've seen where it leads to this or that" I'm all ears. I do appreciate advice and opinions and that is what I came here for, but I value real-world experiences most, that's why I didn't ask in a car forum ..........
    BTDT on modern Pole buildings and metal buildings, AG, commercial and residential. you were given the info you asked for including proper insulation standards, enclosure, weight ratings and using strongbacks, stick pins or lighter weight and stronger metal support systems and warned ya not to build built-in storage in the zero DL/LL zone in your trusses - BTDT you've been warned and advised to check with the truss diagrams and the engineer who drew them or manufacturer who built them for your supplier if you didn't believe your own documented statements on your own web site about what those diagrams stated - and you did in fact solicit advice and opinion on your AMC enthusiast web forum before you came here on the very same subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by havanagranite View Post
    (and I must have missed where it said that a double vapor barrier was a bad thing......)[/quote]
    I can't say it is especially since they sell a completely incased insulation just the normal yellow insulation in a giant bag basicaly
    more useless commentary from someone who doesn't have a clue.

    About 10 years ago Dr. and his Mrs. decided to buy the farm down the parkway from us as he was getting out of hands-on medicine and taking on administration strict 9-4 commuter wanted to ease into hobby farming towards retirement. folks tried to tell them about their mistakes but well Dr knew what he was doing gluelam poles foam bug guards, fiberglass batt not blankets thin steel interior overloaded storage trusses and all horse barn, garage/office and arena. They couldn't keep a horse alive for more than six months. Over ran with rodents birds bats and insects in less than 4 years, mold, condensation, rot nightmare you could smell it from the road. Mrs. was getting sicker and sicker. garage/office didn't last to the 5th year Arena condemmed by the 6th year, barn fell down before the 7th. auction was last august nothing sold. everything was leveled last month steel scrap $ didn't cover the demo charges.

    hope your building lasts more than 7-10 years (or the next straight wind season if those OH doors are open) and doesn't break your budget in insurance premiumus out there in Iowa. I guess i'd be cranky too if I had a registered sex offender living next door who kept complaining to the code officials about my construction activities, was already overrun with bug problems in my two-year-old pole building and someone started pointing out inconsistancies and future problems with my dream vision and I was already experiencing those very problems for days, weeks, months or years. but hey, the red paint with white trim looks fantastic. good luck to you BillD.
    Last edited by Blue RidgeParkway; 11-28-2008 at 12:20 AM.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    455

    Default Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue RidgeParkway View Post
    BTDT on modern Pole buildings and metal buildings, AG, commercial and residential. you were given the info you asked for including proper insulation standards, enclosure, weight ratings and using strongbacks, stick pins or lighter weight and stronger metal support systems and warned ya not to build built-in storage in the zero DL/LL zone in your trusses - BTDT you've been warned and advised to check with the truss diagrams and the engineer who drew them or manufacturer who built them for your supplier if you didn't believe your own documented statements on your own web site about what those diagrams stated - and you did in fact solicit advice and opinion on your AMC enthusiast web forum before you came here on the very same subject.



    more useless commentary from someone who doesn't have a clue.

    About 10 years ago Dr. and his Mrs. decided to buy the farm down the parkway from us as he was getting out of hands-on medicine and taking on administration strict 9-4 commuter wanted to ease into hobby farming towards retirement. folks tried to tell them about their mistakes but well Dr knew what he was doing gluelam poles foam bug guards, fiberglass batt not blankets thin steel interior overloaded storage trusses and all horse barn, garage/office and arena. They couldn't keep a horse alive for more than six months. Over ran with rodents birds bats and insects in less than 4 years, mold, condensation, rot nightmare you could smell it from the road. Mrs. was getting sicker and sicker. garage/office didn't last to the 5th year Arena condemmed by the 6th year, barn fell down before the 7th. auction was last august nothing sold. everything was leveled last month steel scrap $ didn't cover the demo charges.

    hope your building lasts more than 7-10 years (or the next straight wind season if those OH doors are open) and doesn't break your budget in insurance premiumus out there in Iowa. I guess i'd be cranky too if I had a registered sex offender living next door who kept complaining to the code officials about my construction activities, was already overrun with bug problems in my two-year-old pole building and someone started pointing out inconsistancies and future problems with my dream vision and I was already experiencing those very problems for days, weeks, months or years. but hey, the red paint with white trim looks fantastic. good luck to you BillD.
    It seems you don't like it when people disagree with you even to the point of being nasty toward the original poster. No surprise people are scared off when you get involved.

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: "sheetrock" for my barn/shop

    Quote Originally Posted by kentvw View Post
    The banned Leslie and Drarf*itch strikes yet once again............
    kentvw, banned AGAIN. You will not be missed.

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