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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    1

    Default Experience With Energy Kinetics System 2000

    I Am Looking To Install A New High Efficiency Furnace In Our Church. As An Engineer I Think The System 2000 Looks Very Good. I Need To Hear From Users, And Others, What Experience They Have Had As Far As Savings, And Maintenace Problems. Kfw

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    443

    Default Re: Experience With Energy Kinetics System 2000

    kfw:

    A church would have characteristics of a commercial installation---could you provide more info as to the type of fuel to be used, the sq.footage of the building, height of ceilings, domestic hot water needed.

    Has a heat loss calc been done---would this require boiler capacity of 200, 000 btu or more??

  3. #3

    Default Re: Experience With Energy Kinetics System 2000

    Does anyone want to offer their critical opinion of System 2000 in general? I'm planning on a EK-1 with a s/s 75 gal. water tank for upstate New York, Climate Zone 5,winter Design dry-bulb temp - 1 and Heating Degree days at 6734. I'm interested in everyone's general experience in terms of actual performance, etc. versus manufacturer's claims.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    443

    Default Re: Experience With Energy Kinetics System 2000

    John:

    You didn't mention if you have nat.gas or will use #2 oil.

    I can only comment from extensive reading I've done on the System 2000.

    Many customers are impressed with the quiet opeation of the unit & many see a fuel usage drop of 30% to 45% from their older unit.

    This is a 3-pass stainless steel boiler that has a lot of proprietary parts--if it's oil-fired you may well be locked into a local oil co. that is factory authorized to service the Ek-1 & will charge a lot for oil, parts & service.

    The estimate is $6k to $9k for an install---also done only by a factory Systems 2000 trained tech.

    Many techs complain that the unit goes downhill after 10 yrs due to poor workmanship & is ready for replacement within 20 yrs---in comparison, cast iron boilers from mfgrs mentioned below will last closer to 40 years---there are lots of problems reported with clogging of the flat plate heat exchanger (a part unique to System 2000)(especially if you have hard water) that controls the domestic hot water storage tank--also problems with the electronic control boards.

    Some System 2000 units come with a Triangle Tube indirect HWH which is much preferred option, if available, instead of the flat plate heat exchanger.

    The System 2000 parts are also factory propriatary & often have to be shipped from the main headquarters in New Jersey if the local parts dealer doesn't have it---those who buy their oil on the spot market in the summer are out of luck & thus pay more for oil. due to a lockin with the authorized dealer.

    Routine maintenance also can only be done by a factory-trained tech & many customers complain it is expensive & they feel overcharged.

    Other techs recommend you price compare with the Burnham MPO, the Buderus G215, the Peerless Pinnacle, or the Weil McLain Ultra---the Biasi B10, Slant/Fin Eutectic & the Crown 3-pass are mentioned as well---they feel all of these are superior to the System 2000.

    Rather than the stainless steel combustion chamber, the cast iron unit of the other mfgrs is recommended with a companion indirect HWH by Triangle Tube, Crown Megastor, HTP Super Stor, Weil McLain Indirect, TFI Everheat, Lochinvar Squire, Buderus Indirect.

    http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=279267
    Last edited by JacktheShack; 07-17-2008 at 02:42 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Experience With Energy Kinetics System 2000

    Although the last response to this question was in July, I just found it and because it's so full of mistruths I felt it necessary to respond and set the record straight. I respond not as one who has just read alot about the product, that's the writer's only basis for his remarks, but as a service tech who installed over 65 System 2000's.


    1) The boiler is not stainless steel, it's a special mild steel. It's a high quality product that has been manufactured since 1979. Expected life is similar to a cast iron boiler in the same application. The estimates of life span for the boilers mentioned at the end of the post are mostly speculative since they have not been in service long enough for actual figures. The chamber is not stainless steel either, it's high temperature refractory material that heats up faster and provides cleaner combustion.

    2) The only proprietary parts are the system manager and digital temperature sensor. All other components are standard including burner parts. Any higher efficiency system in use today has at least one proprietary component and quite often has to be ordered when it goes bad. The system manager can be bypassed temporarily with an inexpensive service board if it fails. If the sensor fails the manager automatically goes into service board mode so there is no loss of heat or hot water.

    Contrary to popular belief any repair or replacement parts can be purchased directly from the manufacturer by any properly licensed or permitted HVAC contractor, oil or gas company or service company.

    3) The plate heat exchanger has been around a lot longer than EK and they are used world wide for fast, efficient transfer of heat both for heating and cooling liquids. The vast majority of the systems they are installed with have no issue with clogging. In those cases where high mineral content in the domestic water is present it's simple to treat the water to prevent scale buildup.

    4) System 2000 does not offer the Triangle Tube indirect as an option. Instead they offer a Bradford-White indirect previously manufactured by Aeroso of high quality stainless.

    5) Since the System 2000 uses standard burners and is simple to service, any competent tech can service the system. They do not have to be factory authorized. Training seminars are available at low cost for those who have a desire to learn more but are not mandatory.

    6) The advertised high efficiency of the system isn't just manufacturer's hype. The figures provided were verified by Brookhaven National Labs during there testing of varied types and manufacturers of heat/hot water systems to develop a more accurate method of testing efficiency than AFUE which was developed for warm air furnace.

    7) The type of fuel has no bearing on system operation or efficiency. The system is fuel neutral and works equally well with #2, NG or LP by installing the correct burner for the fuel.

    I see many posts similar to this about various products that are written based on what someone else has opined and often those opinions are biased without fact to back it up. I'm responding because I do have first hand knowledge of the product and although I am no longer in this exact business, I still keep up on developments and know the difference between fact and fiction.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1

    Default Re: Experience With Energy Kinetics System 2000

    Quote Originally Posted by John Brennan View Post
    Does anyone want to offer their critical opinion of System 2000 in general? I'm planning on a EK-1 with a s/s 75 gal. water tank for upstate New York, Climate Zone 5,winter Design dry-bulb temp - 1 and Heating Degree days at 6734. I'm interested in everyone's general experience in terms of actual performance, etc. versus manufacturer's claims.
    Hi!

    I've Energy Kinetics installed in our house Last summer of 1999 and it is true that it will save you a lot of fuel/Money a year, the only issue here, just make it sure that you watch the mechanic who service your System 2000 and make it sure that they know your system coz they are trying to tune it up to burn more fuel...

    Very Good boiler and I recommend it, so many negative comments that the manager is having some issues, not true at all. I've this bioler running for 9 years now and saving money even due the cost of home oil/Fuel now is $3.40 in NJ...

    Actually I'm calling the company tomorrow to order parts for the first time...


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    13

    Default Re: Experience With Energy Kinetics System 2000

    Shack nailed it!

    I am also looking for a new heating system/boiler for my home and have researched the available choices.

    I would tend to agree with Jack Shack as someone who has over 500 posts and years of hands on experience.

    The link he includes connects to techs who have wide experience with heating systems.

    hankinson would have us believe with his one submitted post that he knows everything---I don't believe any of his statements or the "65 installs" he claims, he sounds a lot like a rep for Energy Kinetics.

    It's so easy for co. reps to prowl the home improvement boards and misrepresent themselves and the products available.

    I don't like the proprietary aspects of EK or the super high price their "authorized techs" charge for an install.

    The problems mentioned have been documented by many service techs.
    Last edited by Rosaleeta; 09-23-2008 at 03:26 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Experience With Energy Kinetics System 2000

    Shack doesn't claim to have any experience with System 2000, only that he's read a lot about it. I guess if I read enough books on the subject I could become a brain surgeon or nuclear physicist. Writing a lot about something doesn't mean one is knowledgeable about it, only that he writes a lot.

    I have indeed installed over 65 systems starting back in the 90's. I have over 38 years hands-on experience as an installer and oil burner service tech. I installed my own system in 1997 and aside from replacing the nozzle and filter several times have had no service problems. When I remove the rear for cleaning I can see that the boiler is plate steel, not stainless. The chamber is similar to kaowool which is widely used for boiler and furnace combustion chambers.


    The statements I made are true and I stand by them. The plate heat exchanger was invented in 1923 and is sold around the world for many different applications.

    The only proprietary components on the system are the manager and the digital sensor. Circulators are standard Taco, high limit aquastat is White Rogers, zone valves are Honeywell, burner is a standard Beckett AFG. Where am I lying?

    A friend of mine installed a system in his house several years ago (he's a licensed plumber) after doing his homework. He figured up the cost of several different conventional boilers, an Amtrol indirect and all the misc. fittings that would be needed for a complete install then compared the cost for a complete System 2000. The costs were the same. However, he was able to install the System 2000 more quickly than the others would have taken since so much was already factory assembled.

    Sorry for the rant but I don't like being called a liar. Actually, now that I think about it, maybe you're a company fink.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: Experience With Energy Kinetics System 2000

    I agree with Rosaleeta and the others on problems with the system 2000.

    Mr. Shack, who gave a balanced review of the boiler, was responding to john, who asked for critical opinions, not kfw who asked for experience.

    We had a system 2000 installed 8 years ago that cost nearly $10k and we had problems with the plate heat exchanger and other parts---we finally got fed up and got a different boiler.

    Yes, hankinson does sound to me like an energy kinetics rep---to his ranting mind, they can do no wrong.

    We also had to sign an agreement to buy the oil from a particular oil dealer.
    Last edited by Dora Donut; 09-24-2008 at 11:33 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Experience With Energy Kinetics System 2000

    The only thing I knocked Jack's post for was the fact that he himself stated that his opinions and what he wrote were based solely on opinions of others. I have found in life that if something is proclaimed long enough and loud enough it becomes fact simply because it was repeated so many times.

    Yes, Jack has posted over 500 times. His posts cover the whole spectrum of home improvement and DIY and he seems to offer a lot of good information. However, in those posts he claims that any cast iron boiler is better than a steel boiler. This is really a blanket statement that ignores some of the quality steel boilers that have been marketed over the years among the best being the GE low-pressure which was years ahead of the competition.

    He states that cast iron boilers are proven technology. So were carbureted car engines. How many do you find sold in a new car? Times change and new technology should not be ignored in favor of "proven" technology.

    He also seems to be hung up with AFUE and helps perpetuate the myth that it's an accurate means of determining which system will save the most energy. AFUE has long been acknowledged as being totally inaccurate when used to measure efficiency of combined heat/hot water systems. It's accurate for warm air furnaces because they have no standby loss and purge the heat out of the furnace when the thermostat is satisfied. Hot water boilers generally don't do that. So those losses, which are considerable, aren't taken into account by AFUE.

    NORA (National Oilheat Research Alliance) and Brookhaven National Labs have been working on an accurate efficiency testing method for this type of boiler for some time.

    Articles on this have been published in various trade magazines and newsletters for several years. See Fuel Oil News and Oilheating in particular.
    Last edited by jim hankinson; 04-21-2009 at 08:14 AM.

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