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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Fayette County, Ohio
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    Default Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

    Over heating while soldering will cause blackening that will not wipe off with a damp cloth.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  2. #22

    Default Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by JLMCDANIEL View Post
    There's no black on the cold water lime or the hot water line in the same area which suggests to me that it has more to do with technique than environment.
    Jack
    Maybe because THEY ARE BELOW the BREACH in the Vent Connector at the bottom of the offset!

    I was addressing oldhanggliderpilot. Let pilot determine. Could just be how it LOOKS in the photo. Either way the breach should be FIXED and a slope on the lateral.

  3. #23

    Default Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by JLMCDANIEL View Post
    Over heating while soldering will cause blackening that will not wipe off with a damp cloth.
    Jack
    Yes it does when you're wiping off the HOT fluid FLUX residue which is acidic it wipes the discoloration right off usually. And you do want to get that flux OFF so it doesn't continue to eat away at the copper.

    You just like to argue everything don't you.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Fayette County, Ohio
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    Default Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Over My Hammy View Post
    Yes it does when you're wiping off the HOT fluid FLUX residue which is acidic it wipes the discoloration right off usually. And you do want to get that flux OFF so it doesn't continue to eat away at the copper.

    You just like to argue everything don't you.
    Just expressing a different point of view. The problem seems that you will only accept your own conclusions. I didn't say you were wrong only pointed out another possible scenario.
    If you look at the connections on the pump it is black where there would have been no flux to wipe off. At the elbow it is well beyond the area that would have flux on it.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Idaho
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    14

    Default Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

    Looking at the pictures of the pump and top of water heater, the only black on the tubing is where I replaced the leaking tubing last year. Pictures ****** are low resolution so this is not very visible on them. I am an amateur at sweating copper so any black on the tubing was most likely caused by me overheating the joint. At the points where leaks appeared, there was no discoloration (black, green, blue, or otherwise). The water just sprayed out. The only way to locate the leak was to hold my hand up, find the water spraying, and follow it back to the leak. All thinning of the tubing was from the inside out and always in the first inch or so of the end of the tubing where the water entered the tubing. I also probably did not wipe the joints properly after sweating so I probably should go do that to remove any left over flux.

    Explain what is meant by "the breach should be FIXED and a slope on the lateral". Is this comment referring to my installation or something else?

    I would much rather be out flying than plumbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Over My Hammy View Post
    Maybe because THEY ARE BELOW the BREACH in the Vent Connector at the bottom of the offset!

    I was addressing oldhanggliderpilot. Let pilot determine. Could just be how it LOOKS in the photo. Either way the breach should be FIXED and a slope on the lateral.

  6. #26

    Default Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

    Was referring to what I already said in earlier post about your pictures, this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Over My Hammy View Post
    See no attachment on the water heater single wall vent connector before the bend elbow and not sealed see exposed crimping. Could that BLACKness on the outside be SOOT based chemical corrosive actions on the copper?

    First thing is that flue exhast from gas water heater is corrosive and full of water vapor. The relationship/proximity of the corroding black copper and that breach for the vent makes me wonder if that isn't part of the problem.
    You're blackening the pipes you're not sweating right. You don't have to heat things up that much for a lap joint. You don't even get the inside cone close to the copper. If you still have water in the pipes your joints going to be defective no matter how long you over heat the copper.

    Do you know the about the ball of white bread trick?

    I thought Idaho was seismic zone don't you usually use flex for connection?

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fayette County, Ohio
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    Default Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

    Well oldhanggliderpilot, I think you being on site you can discern what advice most likely fit your situation and I think you've done an excellent job of that. Your conclusions are well based. I have no idea what Chinese drywall or "the breach should be FIXED and a slope on the lateral" has to do with the situation or even what they mean. This is getting a little to confusing for me to continue to follow. You didn't melt the tubing so you didn't overheat it. Discoloration is not going to cause failure. I wish you well and hope you have no further problems.
    Jack
    Last edited by JLMCDANIEL; 04-11-2009 at 07:19 PM.
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

    Didn't have to use the ball of bread trick since I was able to drain all the water out of the tubing before I sweat the joints back together. Like I said before, I am an amateur at sweating copper so I most likely overheated the joints causing the blacking. I think I probably go a little heavy on the heat for fear I won't heat it enough.

    I see what you were saying about the connection before the bend elbow and the exposed crimping. What kind of an attachment would you expect to see? There are screws through the elbow into the pipe below. The flue pipe after the elbow goes upward at about a 10-15 degree slope until it connects to the main flue.

    I don't know about being in a seismic zone. Since this installation was inspected and approved, I have to think that the plumber and the guy who put in the flue pipe installed everything to code. Unless of course, the inspector (still not sure about the plumber) was an idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Over My Hammy View Post
    Was referring to what I already said in earlier post about your pictures, this part:



    First thing is that flue exhast from gas water heater is corrosive and full of water vapor. The relationship/proximity of the corroding black copper and that breach for the vent makes me wonder if that isn't part of the problem.

    You're blackening the pipes you're not sweating right. You don't have to heat things up that much for a lap joint. You don't even get the inside cone close to the copper. If you still have water in the pipes your joints going to be defective no matter how long you over heat the copper.

    Do you know the about the ball of white bread trick?

    I thought Idaho was seismic zone don't you usually use flex for connection?

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    6,480

    Default Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by oldhanggliderpilot View Post
    I am an amateur at sweating copper
    You're more of a pro than you think! Most of us only sweat bullets!

    I have to agree with Jack, you've assessed the situation and rectified it. Professional or not with the soldering, if it ain't leaking, you've done the job. As was mentioned, you do want to wipe down the pipes to remove any excess flux.

    As far as seismic issues, if the home has passed inspections prior to your purchase, you have little to worry about as far as code compliance or current seismic safety regulations. That may change when you go to sell the home, but rarely do you have to retrofit hard fixtures (built in systems ) to current code. At most, the water heater will need to be strapped to the wall if it isn't already.
    I suffer from CDO ... Its like OCD, but in alphabetical order, LIKE IT SHOULD BE!!!

  10. #30

    Default Re: pin hole leaks in copper pipe

    If you over heat the copper which can be done with propane such as when making a brazed joint not a sweated one or heat over heat it even higher you end up annealing the copper and making it softer. It is less strong to hold up to long term pressures.

    If you're not on a farm then I'd expect minimum UPC standards local cities and counties can only make tougher standards to enforce not weaker ones. If you're on a farm than anything goes and they'd be inspecting nothing. UPC has been consistant on the vent connections even with Idaho's delayed adoption of UPC additions there haven't been changes to the sections on water heaters. Even if you're on a farm I'd think you'd want at least minimum safety.

    Strapping for seismic not the only requirement, Flex connections to the tank are part of that depending on the zone. Wind can displace a tank too.

    Even if your solder connections are perfect if there is even low level seismic activity it can stress and cause breaks. Tiny defects get worse from constant water pressure and friction from the water constantly moving.

    The single wall vent connector has to be nested before screws attached, that offset should be down against the bulge you see below the crimping before the sheet metal screws installed. Same with the end against the draft hood should be down against it. The vent should be supported within the area photographed because of the offset or elbow none is visable. The lateral or horizontal portion of the vent connector single wall should have a pitch to it and also be supported. The instructions from the manufacturer of the water tank heater and the manufacturer of the vent material have this information also.

    If your vent is oversized you can have serious problems too.

    Many people are sickened and some die from Carbon Monoxide poisoning every year in this country. Electricity and water can also be a dangerous combination.

    The rules for appliance tank water heater if not a farm were in place long before 2004, even if it is a farm safety is just as important. It is not a fixed system it is an appliance.
    Last edited by Moon Over My Hammy; 04-11-2009 at 11:45 PM.

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