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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Westom I couldnt help but notice some very interesting points in your arguments, but the condescending nature of your post disgust me. Perhaps you could take into consideration that not everyone on the internets that isnt YOU is a moron, and arrange your post to reflect some humility. You may find your points better received and we could all benefit from them.

    Lloyd
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  2. #32
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Westom I couldnt help but notice some very interesting points in your arguments,
    Lloyd - where were you when I was trying to be only informative. In this disucssion, I have suffered personal attack after personal attack. Constantly.

    Please, post with curious and relevant replies so that scumbag Limbaugh attackers can be ignored.

    Go back. I started being helpful. But every reply here was only constant personal attacks by the same few. Cheap shots are what Limbaugh advocates so that all discussion will only be nasty. So that informed thought is not possible withot the nastiness. I did not start it.

    Ask logical questions without their Limbaugh "Hilary is evil' attitude to change the tone. Then we can discuss the technical fats without their constant cheap shot attacks.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Quote Originally Posted by westom View Post
    Nonsense.
    This was your second post weston after a few people posted that didnt agree with you.

    I can tell you first hand we dont all always agree, but we dont dismiss each other either.

    I like Limbaugh.

    Hilary IS evil.

    I no longer care what your point was.

    OP
    TVSS Is a good idea and protecting your property at multiple locations is NOT a bad idea. a whole house system at the panel is good and additional protection at the point of use is even better. I would personally recomend leviton products because they offer the best value with a solid warranty backed them by a reputable company. Just google Leviton TVSS.

    My apologies for the off topic rants, and welcome to the forum.
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  4. #34
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    I'm a meter tech for a local utility. If your neighbors are having problems with surges, there may be grounding issues with the primary neutral, secondary neutral or service panel grounding. You as a homeowner can check your panel to make sure it is grounded correctly. Most often, the grounding electrode conductor (GEC) is bonded to the can or to a ground bus, but no wire or busbar connects that connection to the neutral bus. This is in violation of the code. There must be a solid connection from the ground bus to the neutral bus if the GEC is to be connected there. A better way is to connect the GEC directly to the neutral bus. Make sure the neutral main bonding jumper is installed. It will be either a piece of wire or a green screw bonding the neutral to the service enclosure. Remember also the the water and gas pipes also need to be bonded per code. If in doubt, have an electrician check it all.

    Also, have the utility come and ckeck the wiring and grounding of the transformers. Usually no charge.

    As far as whole house surge protectors, how do you know if it worked. Maybe you just haven't had surges. Also, how do you know if it is still in working order? Personally, I think they're a poor solution to improper grounding and bonding.

    Just my humble opinion, though.
    Just because you can, it doesn't mean you should!

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Smith View Post
    As far as whole house surge protectors, how do you know if it worked. Maybe you just haven't had surges. Also, how do you know if it is still in working order? Personally, I think they're a poor solution to improper grounding and bonding.
    Which is exactly what I have been posting. No protector is protection. The effective protector connects each hot wire short to single point earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection ... which is why plug-in protectors are described by me as ineffective. And why the NIST describes a ungrounded protector as useless.

    A 'whole house' protector is so effective because it connects short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to that earthing. No earthing. No protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which is why informed homeowners always install one 'whole house' protector. Utilities also rent an equivalent unit that mounts behind the electric meter. But again, it is only as effective as the earth ground that the homeowner must inspect, upgrade, or install.
    Last edited by westom; 02-12-2010 at 06:13 PM.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Westom,
    Actually what you said was that a single point ground provides no failure protection from lightening then you started insulting and name calling anyone who disagreed with your conclusions. You stated "Ground is the solution for lightning protection" and absolutely refused to consider any valid discussion. You claimed everyone else is a non-professional, the they are ignorant, and uninformed.

    This is a copy from a paper from a study by GE (you can find it at the NIST site) that shows how lightening can enter on the grounded conductor and produce electromagnetic and capacitive coupling with the phase wires something you have totally ignored and refuted as ignorance.

    You have also ignored that lightening can enter a house by a direct hit to the house, it can then jump to house wiring, destroying much before it ever seeks ground. I guess you never heard of lightening striking a chimney.

    In my first post I stated "Proper grounding provides some protection but is no guarantee against lightening" and I stand by that statement and you have provided no evidence to the contrary or of any company or equipment manufacturer that gives a complete free form damage guarantee for their equipment or their services.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Westom,
    How can lightning strike a tree? From my basic science knowledge wood isn't normally a conductor of electricity. So it would seem one can conclude that lightning isn't predictable and nothing can be done to prevent a strike.
    Last edited by bsum1; 02-12-2010 at 10:03 PM.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Quote Originally Posted by JLMCDANIEL View Post
    Actually what you said was that a single point ground provides no failure protection from lightening then you started insulting and name calling anyone who disagreed with your conclusions.
    Your picture completely agrees with everything I had posted. Most everyone will never see a 100Kv lightning strike in their lifetime. But let's use those numbers anyway. A direct lighting strike to household appliances would be that picture is proper protectors and earthing was not installed. That picture shows a primary surge protection system (at the utility transformer) and secondary protection system (at the service entrance). (Yes, homeowners should inspect their primary protection system - especially if your electric company is a First Energy company.)

    Since this is an extreme surge, then how much maximum current approaches the building? 30,000 amps. What is the minimal 'whole house' protector designed to earth? 50,000 amps.

    If each protector layer (earth ground defines each protection layer) is properly earthed, then no current (no destructive energy) is inside the house. Why do telcos all over the world, with a computer connected to overhead wires all over town, also never suffer damage from this direct lightning strike. Because they do same. However to make a connection to earth better, each wire goes underground to a vault. Each wire in every cable is earthed in that vault. Only then does that lightning struck wire connect to the computer - and no damage.

    I remember that picture maybe from an IEEE paper well over a decade ago.
    I stated "Proper grounding provides some protection but is no guarantee against lightening"
    Well let's put some numbers to your statement. It is correct. From the IEEE Green Book entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':
    > Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a
    > path which will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage.
    > Even this means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
    > Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct
    > strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per
    > 6000 years ...

    So yes, earthing is not 100% effective. At 99.5% effective, then what will a plug-in protectors do? Maybe add another 0.2% protection. We earth one 'whole house' protector for only 99.5% protection for all appliances - including GFCI receptacles and the furnace. Then spend $25 or $150 per appliance for each appliance to get another 0.2% protection? And still that is not 100%.

    The numbers say you are right. And the numbers also say what I have been posting repeatedly.

    BTW someone who says, "it is wrong" and provides no supporting facts and numbers. Then he is only insulting everyone and deserves sharp rebuke. I do not apologize for sharp rebukes. They were not insults. They were properly targeted sharp rebuke. See the difference in tone? You provided facts with your assertion. That is how intelligent people respond. Provided are the numbers that enhance that figure.

    BTW, that figure is equivalent to viewing an old and long lost friend. And I think when I viewed it, it was an old publication then.

    Now, moving on to
    lightening can enter on the grounded conductor and produce electromagnetic and capacitive coupling
    But again, if true, then lighting is constantly destroying telco CO (switching computer every year in most towns. It does not happen because single point earth ground makes that not happen. Equipotential and conductivity are two underlying and relevant concepts.

    Meanwhile, electromagnetic fields and capacitive coupling is why every nearby automobile radio, cell phone and electronics watch is destroyed due to a nearby lightning strike. Oh? None are? Exactly. Those electromagnetic fields myths come without numbers or even examples. Let's provide two more examples.

    Lightning strikes close to a 100+ foot long wire antenna. As documented in IEEE paper maybe 15 years ago, that creates thousands of volts on that antenna. Then we connect an NE-2 (neon glow) lamp to that antenna lead. NE-2 glows at about 1 milliamp. Suddenly that thousands of volts drops to tens of volts. Induced current typically so small that a neon glow sometimes can only be observed in a dark room. That NE-2 lowers thousands of volts down to tens of volts by simply conducting milliamps. An antenna designed to maximize electromagnetic reception absorbs that little energy from a nearby strike.

    Only direct strikes have significant energy - tens of thousands of amps. Electromagnetically coupled energy is so small as be made irrelevant by an NE-2 glow lamp. Which, BTW, was a standard surge protection device in 1960 portable CB radio antennas.

    Second example. Lightning struck the building's Franklin lightning rod. That meant tens of thousands of amps - the entire direct strike - was earthed via a ground wire. Inside and about four feet away from thousands of amps was an IBM PC. It did not even flicker. Tens of thousands of amps - the entire direct strike - was on an adjacent wire. Electromagnetic fields did nothing to that computer. Did not even crash a program. Again, those electromagnetic and other induced destructive transients do not exist.

    An NE-2 earthed the entire long wire antenna - and barely glowed. All nearby car radios, cell phones, and wrist watches were never harmed. Telco COs not destroyed by near or direct lighting strikes - because it is earthed. Even a PC only four feet from the entire lightning strike - unaffected.

    Lightning is destructive when hundreds or thousands of amps is incoming and outgoing through that appliance. Why protetion is always about dissipating energy before it can enter a building.

    Yes, earth ground is not 100% effective. Maybe only 99.5% effective. Then spend tens or 100 times more money on plug-in protectors for an additional 0.2% protection? Your picture simply demonstrates that a rare 100,000 amp lightning strike is even made irrelevant by a minimal and properly earthed 50,000 amp 'whole house' protector.

    Why is 50,000 amps a minimal standard? Because an effective protector must earth a direct lightning strike (30,000 amps in your picture) - and remain functional. Those are the numbers. And that is what we learned in some cases the hard way.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Quote Originally Posted by bsum1 View Post
    How can lightning strike a tree? From my basic science knowledge wood isn't normally a conductor of electricity.
    From Ben Franklin. Lightning seeks earth ground. One conductor better than air was the wooden church steeple. Wood is an electrical conductor. But not a very good conductor. That 20,000 amp current will create a high voltage, as necessary, to maintain 20,000 amps (an engineering concept called constant current source) through that steeple.

    20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple dissipates that energy - is damaged.

    Franklin did not stop surges. Like all effective protectors, he diverted lighting's current via a lightning rod. A lightning rod is not protection. A lightning rod is as effective as its earth ground. That more conductive wire to earth is near zero volts.

    20,000 amps times near zero volts is near zero energy. Now energy dissipates harmlessly in earth.

    You would be surprised how many non-conductive items are lightning conductors. All builders should learn what was posted and discussed earlier - Ufer grounding. Ufer grounds are superior building protection because concrete footings are so conductive. A lightning surge connected inside concrete via rebar is the earth ground that even averted lightning created explosions in munitions dumps.

    More examples of Ufer grounds:
    http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
    http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm
    http://lists.contesting.com/archives.../msg00141.html

    How conductive is something? Get a room dry. Put on leather slippers. Build up static electricity. Notice which items tend to discharge. Static electricity can also identify improperly grounded receptacles and wall switches. More conductive means more pain. Even some wall paints and linoleum tile are conductive.

    Why is this relevant to surge protection? With so many 'surprise' paths to earth, then reliable protection means no surge energy inside a building. Otherwise surges will find conductive and destructive (secret) paths even through items you did not know were conductive.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    "Inductive coupling (electromagnetic)occurs where the source and receiver are separated by a short distance (typically less than a wavelength)." "Inside and about four feet away from thousands of amps was an IBM PC." This is not the same as the phase wires wrapped around the grounded conductor, a similar situation to the windings of a transformer.

    NASA studies have concluded that near strikes have caused data changes in on-board computers on rockets. That would suggest that there is some inductive coupling going on there.

    The NOAA national storm laboratory states
    "Cloud-to-ground lightning can kill or injure people by direct or indirect means. The lightning current can branch off to a person from a tree, fence, pole, or other tall object. It is not known if all people are killed who are directly struck by the flash itself. In addition, flashes may conduct their current through the ground to a person after the flash strikes a nearby tree, antenna, or other tall object. The current also may travel through power or telephone lines, or plumbing pipes to a person who is in contact with an electric appliance, telephone, or plumbing fixture."
    Is also stated on their web site "

    OCS ( Oregon Climate Service Oregon State Univ. ) states
    "Lightning can travel over the surface of the ground and through the ground. The ground surface can be lethal for up to 60 feet radius or more from the point of contact. This also includes a ground rod as the point of contact. In water, the lethal radius is about 600 feet from point of contact."

    Jack
    Last edited by JLMCDANIEL; 02-13-2010 at 01:22 AM.
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

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