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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    " Direct lightning strikes and no damaged electronics " ?
    Oh , the stories I could tell .

    While your at it , how about giving us some details on your " single point earthing " . Maybe some photos of your own installation .

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Quote Originally Posted by djohns View Post
    While your at it , how about giving us some details on your " single point earthing " . Maybe some photos of your own installation .
    Start by learning what 'no damage ever' installations do. For example, Orange County FL emergency response system was suffering repeated lightning failures. So they installed no protectors. Instead, a solution was to fix single point earth ground:
    http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

    That is where most every 'surge' solution begins. A Nebraska radio station suffered damage. Finally they decided to stop implementing myths. The consultant fixed the earthing:
    http://www.copper.org/applications/e.../nebraska.html

    Read what they did. For example, the ill informed actually disconnected earth on some myth that ground was attracting lightning. Even well published technical discussions from the ARRL (QST Magazine) say otherwise.

    Step one. Restore the earthing. Every protection layer (contrary to popular myths) is defined only by earthing. So they fixed even the primary protection system by getting the utility's single point ground upgraded. Another picture demonstrates where you must perform your inspection:
    http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

    US Air Force is blunt about where the protector must be in instruction manuals:
    > Grounding Systems
    > Introduction. This section covers requirements for grounding and
    > lightning protection systems, including systems installed on or in
    > areas such as explosives buildings, magazines, operating locations
    > and shelters.

    Get the idea? The protection system must always work – no failures. Air Force continues:
    > 15. Surge Protection.
    > 15.1. Entering or exiting metallic power, intrusion detection,
    > communication antenna, and instrumentation lines must have surge
    > protection sized for lightning surges to reduce transient voltages
    > to a harmless level. Install the surge protection as soon as practical
    > where the conductor enters the interior of the facility. Devices
    > commonly used for this include metal oxide varistors, gas tube
    > arresters, and transzorbs.

    This is where you ask why you and your peers do not know this. So many (a majority) will 'know' without first learning what has been common knowledge and a well proven science for over 100 years. Surge protection demonstrates how many are educated by hearsay and advertising – not from science.

    Worse, those who were so blatantly misinformed will attack the messenger rather than the original lying myth purveyor.

    Another informed source:
    http://www.tschmidt.com/writings/HomeLAN2008.htm
    > 6.10 Secondary Lightning Protection
    > The key to minimizing lightning damage is bonding all services together with a
    > low impedance path to earth ground. All conductors entering the building must
    > be bonded together and equipped with lightning protection. This minimizes
    > difference in potential during transient conditions.
    >
    > 6.10.1 Electrical
    > Whole house surge protector should be used to protect the electrical system.
    > Remember goal is to direct excessive energy into a low impedance ground
    > and to provide low impedance bonding of all metallic conductors. We use a
    > GE THQLSURGE protector. Installation is easy it plugs into the main breaker
    > panel much like an ordinary two-pole breaker.
    >
    > Lightning protectors do not absorb energy they divert it. If the diversion path
    > is not low impedance a substantial voltage difference is created. This is what
    > kills electronic gear.
    >
    > 6.10.2 Telephone
    > Telephone Company provides lighting protection as part of the NID.
    > Electronic devices are more fragile than electromechanical phones; this is
    > especially the case with computer equipment because they have multiple
    > connections, power, phone, DSL and Ethernet. This makes equipment more
    > susceptible to line surges. Adding secondary protection minimizes risk of
    > equipment damage. The best location for secondary protection is at building
    > entry point. This allows protector to use low impedance power mains earth
    > ground to minimize voltage difference between services.

    How many knew all phone lines already have a ‘whole house’ protector always installed at the subscriber interface? Most do not because most ‘surge protection’ knowledge comes from the electrically most naïve. NIDs contain a ‘whole house’ protector which only a minority – the informed – understand.

    Now for Sun Microsystem's Planning Guide for the Sun Server Room. Maybe they know something better?
    > Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans
    > for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths
    > for surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors can be designed
    > into the system to help mitigate the potential for lightning damage
    > within the data center. These should divert the power of the surge by
    > providing a path to ground for the surge energy. Protection should be
    > placed on both the primary and secondary side of the service transformer.
    > It is also necessary to protect against surges through the communications
    > lines. The specific design of the lightning protection system for the data
    > center will be dependent on the design of the building and utilities and
    > existing protection measures.

    What we do know. When responsible facilities install surge protection, they waste no money on 'miracle' plug-in solutions. That money is better spent upgrading what provides protection – where energy must dissipate harmlessly - single point earth ground.

    Earth ground begins by meeting post 1990 National Electrical code. Code defines six types of electrodes in Article 250.52. Of those six, only one is not sufficient and must always be supplemented - cold water pipe ground.

    That is earthing for human safety. Exceed those code requirements also for transistor safety. For example, no splices, short (ie ‘less than 10 feet’), no sharp wire bends, wire separated from other non-grounding wires, etc.

    Why was Ufer ground pioneered? So that direct lightning strikes would not cause munitions explosions. Ufer grounds should be standard procedure on all new homes. But that means a majority – especially builders who are so resistant to change - must be reeducated in something that was well understood even 50 years ago.

    In most cases, a single or network of ten foot ground rods may be sufficient. But that is a function of underlying geology, soil type, nearby buried items (ie transcontinental pipeline), frequency of surges (neighborhood history for at least ten years), etc.

    'Whole house' protector is simple science. Any layman can properly install one by remembering simple concept such as a “wire to single point ground must be as short as possible”. No sharp wire bends. Not inside metallic conduit. No splices. Ground wire separated from all other wires. A ground wire from the breaker box over a foundation and down to earth (what most electricians do) obviously violates at least three of those 'no-no's.

    To better understand what has been so well understood for so many years, read the many highly regarded application notes from Polyphaser:
    http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx

    None of this is difficult - except where so many have been educated by retail store propaganda. Some just refuse to forget myths - what they were first told. Then will have trouble understanding the well proven science that contradicts those retail myths. Plug-in protectors do not claim surge protection in their numeric specs for one glaring reason. No short and dedicated connection to what is always essential to surge protection: single point earth ground.

    Protection has always been about where energy dissipates. Always. How does hundreds of joules in a plug-in protector absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which is why the word scam is relevant when recommendations for APC, Tripplite, Belkin, or Monster Cable arrive. To have hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth means a low impedance (not low resistance) connection to single point earth ground. Every foot longer in that connection simply lessens protection.
    Last edited by westom; 02-06-2010 at 09:43 PM.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Interesting examples . But , give us YOUR definition of " single point earthing " . Not something you Googled . I'm seeing some contradictions in what you say , and the examples you cite . Clear it up for me .

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Quote Originally Posted by djohns View Post
    Interesting examples . But , give us YOUR definition of " single point earthing " . Not something you Googled . I'm seeing some contradictions in what you say , and the examples you cite . Clear it up for me .
    Those long posts reminds ya somewhat of someone else who seemed to GOOGLE her way across the board...

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie_Fergler View Post
    Those long posts reminds ya somewhat of someone else who seemed to GOOGLE her way across the board...
    Oh , don't think I didn't consider that .
    Not to mention the timing of everything . Date posted . Date joined . You know ....

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Quote Originally Posted by djohns View Post
    Interesting examples . But , give us YOUR definition of " single point earthing " . Not something you Googled .
    Googling is what you can do now that you have been taught reality. Your questions clearly intended to mock (with snide superiority) are unwelcome.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Quote Originally Posted by westom View Post
    Googling is what you can do now that you have been taught reality. Your questions clearly intended to mock (with snide superiority) are unwelcome.
    I've been taught reality ? That's funny . My questions are clearly intended to show that your knowledge base comes from the internet . And I think I succeeded . See ya' around , Leslie .

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    lets please remember that anything may be posted on the internet but that doesn't make it truth. and someone who bases everything they say on google search and try to convince others that it is the best way and safest way with out any first hand knowledge themselves are setting themselves and others up for disaster.


    better to be thought a fool then to open one's mouth (or start typing) and remove all doubt.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Quote Originally Posted by djohns View Post
    My questions are clearly intended to show that your knowledge base comes from the internet
    Your statement proves Rush Limbaugh has taught you well. You demonstrate no electrical knowledge as only an ill informed cheap shot artist would post.

    Provide from many responsible and highly regarded sources were quotes and citations. Anyone with minimal electrical knowledge knows what earth ground is. And appreciate the validity of citations with the always necessary reasons why. But that assumes you have simple electrical knowledge. You do not even know what earth ground is? Apparently. How poorly educated are you? A logical question based in your poorly worded accusations and sentences.

    Moving back to reality and science. The NIST (US government research agency) is blunt about why ground is so important:
    > A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will
    > work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection
    > in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

    Other sources describe why and how to install effective earthing such as highly regarded Polyphaser application notes:
    http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx

    Or learn from Duke Energy how to fix defective earthing – how to create sngle point earth ground. Oh. Duke Energy also lies?:
    http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-b...ech-tip-08.asp

    Or one can post more cheap shots because that is the full extent of his education. Others should learn the science; ignore how the less educated only post insults.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Whole House Surge Protector

    Westom,
    http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html while an indictment against the local utility company’s up keep of equipment and their personnel trespassing, it is hard to take serious as an expert site when they state “A person living at the end of the grid, and has a "drop" voltage to his home of 115 volts per leg, pays for 100 watts for a 100 watt, 115 volt filament type light bulb. But the person living at the head end of the grid, who receives 125 volts per leg on the "drop" to his house, PAYS ALMOST 20% MORE ON HIS ELECTRIC BILL”. Kind of flies in the face of Ohms Law.

    http://www.tschmidt.com/writings/HomeLAN2008.htm this is presented as part of a “blog of personal musings” with no credentials provided and includes such diverse topics as how he organized his cables. I suspect most of the information was not from personal expertise but cut and paste from other sources, Google perhaps.

    The rest of your linked sources (all with vested interests) are all purveyors of surge suppressors and associated equipment, none of which provide a guarantee against lightening damage. In fact most state that there is no guarantee, you can only minimize the chance of damages.

    Is grounding important to minimize lightening damage, yes, is it a panacea for all lightening strikes, no. That is demonstrated by the fact that lightening can enter a structure on the ground lines and that it doesn’t always take the path of least resistance an fact know for over 100 years.

    If I remember correctly, Ufer grounding was developed to compensate for poor dry soil conditions in a desert setting and primarily to proved a path for static discharge by ammunition handlers rather than lightening. One of the reasons it is not commonly used is because of the additional costs involved in construction while proving little additional benefit over cheaper grounding electrodes in most localities.

    Bonding is for human safety not grounding.

    Considering your writing skills and sentence structure, I don’t believe you should be criticizing otheres for theirs. I’m guessing English is not your first language.

    Jack
     
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

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