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  1. #1
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    Default Outdoor outlets and kitchen gfci

    I had an issue where my dishwasher was kicking the breaker when we used the microwave. Yesterday I decided to take a look and see if I could fix it. What I ended up doing is putting the dishwasher on its own breaker and everything is cool. In the process I noticed many things that were a bit odd. The kitchen had an outlet that was grouped with the living room. But the main thing was the way they wired the Kitchen so far. They ran 12-3 to a box and then in the box they would come out with 2 different circuits. What I found odd about it was one box had 3 wires coming out of it they all went to GFCI's. 2 Were in the kitchen and one was outside on the porch. In the breaker box they were both labeled kitchen GFCI. One was connected by itself, the other was connected to outside outlet. That is obviously wrong. My question is can I just put the 2 kitchen outlets together. With the outside one can I add that with the other 2 outside outlets to free up a breaker?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Outdoor outlets and kitchen gfci

    Quote Originally Posted by raidencmc View Post
    I had an issue where my dishwasher was kicking the breaker when we used the microwave. huh? You mean both were sharing the same circuit and when used at the same time, or the DW changed cycle your CB tripped? Otherwise don't see how the dishwasher by its mere presence was responsible for tripping a breaker while you used (worked electricity with) the microwave appliance

    Yesterday I decided to take a look and see if I could fix it. What I ended up doing is putting the dishwasher on its own breaker and everything is cool. Hmmmm. And that did what with the microwave? How did you accomplish your dishwasher's own breaker feat? please explain

    In the process I noticed many things that were a bit odd.Hmmm. I'm finding your descriptions of things hard to decipher and odd, so not sure how to interpret this statement.

    The kitchen had an outlet that was grouped with the living room. what kind of outlet (do you mean receptacle or some other outlet where electricity is worked such as a light, where in the kitchen)? If not part of a small appliance circuit, not serving a countertop, nor near a sink, such as a breakfast nook wall receptacle: So what? not a problem and common.

    But the main thing was the way they wired the Kitchen so far.
    Who is they? 'So far'? is it not finished?
    They ran 12-3 to a box and then in the box they would come out with 2 different circuits. What leads you to believe it is two different circuits? Sounds like it might be a multiwire branch circuit. Is there a chance you have a range circuit there?

    What I found odd about it was one box had 3 wires coming out of it they all went to GFCI's. Three "wires". Hmmm. Wondering if you mean three cables, such as 12-2w/grnd or three individual conductors, or one 12-3 cable with no ground. Please explain how these "wires" are connected and to what, in the "box". Next please explain how these "'wires' came out of the box" and "all went to GFCI's". Am unclear if you are saying from this box are fed Combo GFCI receptacle devices, GFCI dead front devices, or that this "box" is supplied via three conductors (w/ or w/out ground) from a 120/240 breaker, a GFCI breaker, or two 120 GFCI breakers, or something else all together!

    2 Were in the kitchen Two what were in the kitchen, "wires", cables or "GFCI's". Do you mean combination GFCI receptacles? and one was outside on the porch.one what was on the porch?

    In the breaker box they were both labeled kitchen GFCI.huh? what are "they". What was connected to, tapped, or protected by "them"?

    One was connected by itself, One "what" was "connected by itself"??!??? what does that mean anyway?the other was connected to outside outlet."the other" WHAT was connected, where, what, Huh?

    That is obviously wrong. If you say so, can't be sure just what you're trying to say with your descriptions: reserving comment

    My question is can I just put the 2 kitchen outlets together. reserving comments


    With the outside one can I add that with the other 2 outside outlets to free up a breaker?reserving comments
    Do you know what a multiwire branch circuit is? A pigtail? A yoke?

    Your description of the wiring situation is ambiguous, to say the least. Comments above in quote of your post in red.

    Wires/cables not the same thing. Let us stick to conductors. I don't feel comfortable trusting your description or designation of the cable or "wires" or the circuit path as written, need clarification here

    Noticed you said in another post you purchased your home from a DIY builder/seller.

    Can you start over and stick to one topic/circuit at a time in your descriptions please? Begin with what is at your panel and work forward. Thanks.
    Last edited by Moon Over My Hammy; 01-01-2010 at 02:18 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Outdoor outlets and kitchen gfci

    LOL! Guess which helpful member is back!? LOL!


  4. #4
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    Thumbs up Re: Outdoor outlets and kitchen gfci

    Howdy the question is how much load will you have on the circuit. You should isolate the small appliance circuit ( the outlets on the kitchen counter)from everything else. For the same reason that the microwave is best to have its own circuit. The power demand of modern appliances and # is greater then the way homes were wired. Code dictates several curcits now in the kitchen and GFI requirements. Thus the dishwasher and disposal on separate circuits again the load when the motors start to great for same- safety. If you have space in the main panel then consider isolating the GFI outlets for the out side of you home- make sure they are GFI protected to meet code and prevent pre mature death... And if space allows a circuit to each is better so if you use multible outlets at same time you do not exceed the breaker limit.

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Outdoor outlets and kitchen gfci

    So skip the microwave and dishwasher. I only mentioned them to get an example of what I am working with. The other kitchen outlet was mentioned just clarify that it is safe/correct and it is. The 2 GFCI's in the kitchen would I assume be a multibranch circuit. 1 3conductor cable to a box and then from that box 3 2 conductor's exit. On one side of the 3 conductor cable on kitchen GFCI is connected. ON the other side of that cable is the other kitchen GFCI and the outdoor GFCI on the porch. So can I put the 2 kitchen GFCI's together and the one on the porch by itself or with the other outside receptacles.

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    980

    Default Re: Outdoor outlets and kitchen gfci

    I want to appologize for the rude post above from this not so nice individual. this person does not represent the majority of posters here on this board.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    693

    Default Re: Outdoor outlets and kitchen gfci

    Quote Originally Posted by havanagranite View Post
    I want to appologize for the rude post above from this not so nice individual. this person does not represent the majority of posters here on this board.
    hanabanna must be speaking of me.............

  8. #8
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    693

    Default Re: Outdoor outlets and kitchen gfci

    Quote Originally Posted by raidencmc View Post
    So skip the microwave and dishwasher. I only mentioned them to get an example of what I am working with. The other kitchen outlet was mentioned just clarify that it is safe/correct and it is. The 2 GFCI's in the kitchen would I assume be a multibranch circuit. 1 3conductor cable to a box and then from that box 3 2 conductor's exit. On one side of the 3 conductor cable on kitchen GFCI is connected. ON the other side of that cable is the other kitchen GFCI and the outdoor GFCI on the porch. So can I put the 2 kitchen GFCI's together and the one on the porch by itself or with the other outside receptacles.
    I can quote code after code from the NEC but basically you need two 20a small appliance circuits which just serve receptacles for eating areas......... Not outside receptacles.

  9. #9
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    Mar 2009
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    Default Re: Outdoor outlets and kitchen gfci

    Howdy. First did you check to see if any other items are on the branches? If you have determined at the main panel there are two circuits. Then verifying the live load of the three wire for each breaker in the first box. . This out of the way, you can run 2 kitchen receptacles on one gfi protected circuit. Code- two small appliance circuits and nothing else wired on these. So what to do- use the other circuit for the outside receptacles and one for the two GFI kitchen receptacles( depending on how you wire the GFI outlets dictates if you need only one GFI outlet and the other a regular outlet or if each box has a GFI outlet). Caution to avoid ghost tripping when combining GFIs on came circuit... Better is to utilize the two circuits for just your kitchen and run a separate circuit to the outside outlets...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Outdoor outlets and kitchen gfci

    Quote Originally Posted by raidencmc View Post
    So skip the microwave and dishwasher. I only mentioned them to get an example of what I am working with. The other kitchen outlet was mentioned just clarify that it is safe/correct and it is. The 2 GFCI's in the kitchen would I assume be a multibranch circuit. 1 3conductor cable to a box and then from that box 3 2 conductor's exit. On one side of the 3 conductor cable on kitchen GFCI is connected. ON the other side of that cable is the other kitchen GFCI and the outdoor GFCI on the porch. So can I put the 2 kitchen GFCI's together and the one on the porch by itself or with the other outside receptacles.
    It is important to clarify if you are referring to a multi-wire branch-circuit (its still one circuit - just more than one hot sharing the same neutral) or just a multi-outlet branch circuit with more than one GFCI receptacle on it.

    I do NOT KNOW WHAT A "multibranch circuit" is or what you mean.

    IF you have a MULTIWIRE BRANCH CIRCUIT you would know this IF
    You went to your PANEL.

    Each "hot" of a multiwire branch circuit would be supplied from a different buss. In a 120/240 split single phase that would have one hot from the "A" leaf or buss and the other hot from the "B" leaf or buss. They would SHARE the neutral.

    IF you have a MWBC supplying receptacles, and ESPECIALLY if any of the receptacles are sharing part of a yoke supplied by more than one hot of the MWBC, but also if any of the 125V receptacles supplied by the MWBC require GFCI protection, you SHOULD have a single 120/240 multi-pole GFCI circuit breaker protecting the circuit in the panel first.

    It is very important that should one hot of a MWBC be opened - all HOTS of the same MWBC be opened AT THE SAME TIME if anything else is working electricity on this circuit.

    A MultiWire Branch-Circuit (MWBC) is ONE branch-circuit.

    Don't know where in the world you are posting from or what is minimum requirements for your location, but this is the latest minimum standard in the NEC, and is the minimum requirement for personal safety. Most folks will "get" that the Circuit breaker itself (or a pair of single pole breakers which are tied) must be opened at the same time - when they are JUST dealing with OverCurrent Protection - but "miss" that when one "hot" of a MWBC is opened due to a "detected" current imbalance by the "GFCI" objectional (dangerous) current can travel via the neutral and cause dangerous conditions elsewhere in the circuit. The GFCI receptacles do NOT OPEN the NEUTRAL when they trip.

    Otherwise pull new circuit cables and run separate 2-wire (plus ground) circuits for your two Small Appliance Branch Circuits required for the kitchen countertop.

    The outdoor porch outlet should be GFCI protected and weatherproof cover. It should not be supplied by small appliance branch circuits required for the kitchen countertop.

    There are many ways to provide GFCI protection for a circuit or receptacle location. In the case of a MWBC there is really only one safe way to do so and involves first protecting the entire multiwire branch-circuit with a single GFCI Multipole circuit breaker at the panel.
    Last edited by Moon Over My Hammy; 01-01-2010 at 03:44 PM.

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