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  1. #21
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    Aug 2007
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    Default Re: Wireless Internet

    Jack,

    All of this legal or not legal access.....and the debates about it....may soon enough become a moot point. Google has for years been about the business of trying to set up free wireless access for everyone within the designated coverage areas. Just like "free" TV and radio, this will come at a cost. Much advertising on your screen, to be exact....as if there isn't enough now.

    There is also a plan/build-out in action here to provide "free" broadband wireless access to all rural residents within a 9 county area. They've been working on it for a few years. If it comes to pass.... what it means to people like our WLAN provider is frightening. He and his wife have invested mucho $$$ and mucho effort setting up this WLAN network to provide us with broadband and themselves with a living. I suspect when/if this actually comes to pass....they will receive some manner of financial restitution from the state coffers. Sure hope so.....and they do too. They've known about it for over two years now.


    The computer & the internet have become virtually indispensible.......even for rural folks. It's a brave (or maybe foolish) new world, and I doubt that it's going away.
    Last edited by goldhiller; 03-06-2008 at 02:36 AM.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Wireless Internet

    Jack,

    Thought of an analogy that perhaps better describes my position as regards the owners of wireless routers.

    You look out your window one day and see someone petting your dog. (neighbor or passer-by, doesn't matter which) This angers you and you stomp to the door and holler out at them......"How dare you! I'm calling the police."

    And you do. You complain to the officer that this person has no right to enjoy the company of your dog and that you want him arrested. "Afterall, I'm the one who bought the dog, houses the dog, feeds the dog and pays the dog's vet bills! It's my dog. Therefore, I'm the only one who should get to enjoy his company."

    The officer asks if this person came onto your property. "No, they didn't, the dog went to them......but that doesn't matter! I want him arrested." He responds (or should, IMO)... by telling you that it is your responsibility to fence your yard if you don't want your dog leaving the property and the thought or act of someone else enjoying/petting/playing with your dog.......disturbs you. (Or....train your dog not to wander beyond the property boundaries and to avoid contact with strangers.)
    Last edited by goldhiller; 03-06-2008 at 08:58 AM.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Denver, CO
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    666

    Default Re: Wireless Internet

    With all due respect I gotta say show me.

    Show me one law that makes it a crime of any kind to access an unsecured router.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Fayette County, Ohio
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    Default Re: Wireless Internet

    It would be covered by the same laws that prohibits you from tapping into a phone line in a public right of way. It is thieft of services for which others pay.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  5. #25
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    Aug 2007
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    Default Re: Wireless Internet

    kent,

    Here's an example close to home. Rockford is just 40 miles from here. (Link and text below)

    Frankly, I think it's a crock.....considering that the world is now replete with wireless devices that connect automatically and are owned by people who do not understand the involved technologies and do not often question whether the connection is intentionally open (unsecure) or unintentionally open. Turning on their laptop or Ipod, etc and finding that they have a connection is to them like turning on the radio and finding music there.

    If the average unassuming & uneducated Joe/Jane is to avoid being marked as a criminal...when their device automatically connects to some network that he/she isn't supposed to... in order to simply accquire internet access......then the wireless router manufacturers need to require changing the default settings before that device will even function. Then if you (as owner of the router) set it so that it does allow open and unsecured access........that is at your descretion and obvious control/choice......is thereby assumed to be intentional......and you cannot hold anyone liable for using your network connection.

    A wireless router is not a necessity in life.....it's a choice an individual makes for convenience purposes. With that choice comes some personal responsibility for not enticing others' devices to go where they are not supposed to go........thereby making "criminals" of the naive.

    How silly is it to expect everyone to determine who owns which SSID that shows on their screen......find out how to contact them....and then ask if they intend that connection to be open or not....before connecting? People travel all over the place everyday with LTs/Ipods at their side. There is no legitimate reason in my mind why they should have to check about someone's intent everytime they encounter a wireless connection. Fence your dog if I'm not supposed to interact with it when it comes up and licks my hand.

    The most basic step to fencing that dog so it at least doesn't entice is to simply turnoff the SSID broadcast of the router. Log onto the router and change one simple setting; disable SSID broadcast. Click "save settings". How tuff is that? Now 99% of wireless devices won't even see it when they come within range. This one super simple step will prevent the vast majority of unintentional encounters. Or is that too easy and endless whining/accusations from router owners is the better way to go? I think not.


    Think about all those college kids who have campus wide free wireless. Turn it on, you're connected. Go home for Xmas, turn it on and you're connected. What's to question? Except now they're considered criminals...and can be prosecuted. Give me a break. It's not 1962 anymore and things have changed. The owners of the routers are then also guilty of "enticement to an electronic wireless device".

    -----------------------------------

    http://rrstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...103230036/1011

    ROCKFORD — Just as pirating your neighbor’s cable service to watch premium movie channels is against the law, so too is surfing the Web using someone else’s wireless Internet access.

    David M. Kauchak, 32, a former Machesney Park resident, is the first person in Winnebago County to be charged with remotely accessing another computer system without the owner’s approval. He pleaded guilty Tuesday to the charge and was fined $250 and sentenced to one year of court supervision.

    “We just want to get the word out that it is a crime. We are prosecuting it, and people need to take precautions,” Assistant State’s Attorney Tom Wartowski said.
    Last edited by goldhiller; 03-06-2008 at 11:48 AM.

  6. #26
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    Jan 2008
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    61

    Default Re: Wireless Internet

    Those folks are lucky they were charged with a local ordinance lesser included charge and not conversion, a crime which applies.

    Justifying the vicimization of someone too stupid prevent being a victim of one's criminal activity is just plain b.s. as are the excuses and instructions to others to engage criminal activity.

    Be careful where and how you surf, we have a federal secret court system that deals with thousands of cases no one ever hears about, and thousands of monitored sting operations on international **** trade, quite a few being traced for suspected ultimate drug, weapons and terrorist organization connections.

    Even if your own activities are benign, who knows about the putz's activities that you tap into? Just in the past few months all over the country there were multiple sweeps barely covered in the individual local press areas unless some sort of public official or teacher was arrested in an open indictment, on child **** arrests of the lowest level users that the Feds were monitoring for four to eight years on some, a lot of those indictments remain sealed (since the funds are alledged to be used for a more dubious purpose overseas) and many more open seizures and arrests were made that weren't covered in the press. Nationally just 3 months ago there was quite the ruckus about certain national chains which used lesser encrypted wireless connectivity to link their registers and credit card approvals to their main store server and eventually for authorizations, and inventory and accounting links with their main store chain network. TJmax, Marshalls, and several others compromised, many techie articles about numberous not using the less hackable encryption as well, multiple ID compromises, multiple credit card clearing house files compromised; millions of credit cards having to be reissued numerous times and this is just what we hear about through the media: lots more going on behind the scenes not announced as the feds continue to develop their leads and tracking activities!

    Converting someone else's property or service for your own use and theft of service is a crime. Interstate connectivity makes one eligible for a federally charged felony. These cases have and are being prosecuted all the time and have been for a long time, its only news when someone is using some new unique local ordinance, or some public official is publically busted for doing something untoward, or a press release is made about busting up a network. You'd have to have had your head in the sand to have not caught wind of this.

    A better comparison is using a bootleg receiver to descramble an illegal satellite tv signal, just as illegal. No matter how easy to descramble/break the encryption and/or password it is still illegal. The Federal Government OWNS the airwaves and the airspace over your house; not you.
    Last edited by unregistered; 03-06-2008 at 12:33 PM.

  7. #27
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    Jan 2008
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    61

    Default Re: Wireless Internet

    Quote Originally Posted by kentvw View Post
    With all due respect I gotta say show me.

    Show me one law that makes it a crime of any kind to access an unsecured router.
    Unless its your router (or your leased router) and your service provider, without permission, its conversion. Interstate connectivity makes it a federal crime. Planning and how-to info shared amongst others makes it a consipiracy. Sharing with x or more people upgrades it to RICO. Failure to pay taxes on the value of the ill-gotten income/use of service brings on income tax evasion exposures. The conversion alone is enough, as long as you aren't paying for service yourself, so accidental unintentional can't be a defense if the services aren't provided for free in your area (example free wireless in the local coffee shop for customers). Ignorance no defense, paying for service and having your own wireless router, then accidentally tapping into a neighbors unknowingly may be a defense for SOME of the crimes but not all, and not the civil side of such tortious conduct.

    They eventually took down AL Capone's enterprise on the income tax evasion alone (back door approach, so to speak).
    Last edited by unregistered; 03-06-2008 at 12:46 PM.

  8. #28
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    Aug 2007
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    1,131

    Default Re: Wireless Internet

    Converting someone else's property or service for your own use and theft of service is a crime

    If their network is unsecured/configured to be open access......no changes/conversion takes place if you connect to the internet thru it.

    Example- I configure my router so anyone within range can see it and use it. A complete stranger passes by, sees the signal and uses it. There is no conversion...despite the fact that it was they, not me who connected to the internet. Consent for usage is implied by me leaving the router configured for open access and broadcasting its SSID. So long as my ISP provider does not have any stipulations in the service contract concerning this type of sharing......no theft has occurred because no hacking/forced intrusion has occurred. Our ISP has no such provision/stipulation. Even if he did, it would not be the stranger who used the connection that should liable....it should be me. I have the contract with the ISP, own the router and condoned/provided open usage.

    If this wasn't so, then everyone who accesses an internet connnection at every internet cafe, college campus, motel, hotel, truck stop, yada, yada, yada ....would be guilty of a "conversion" crime.......and so would the provider establishments. On the contrary, it is perfectly legal.
    Last edited by goldhiller; 03-06-2008 at 12:52 PM.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Wireless Internet

    Quote Originally Posted by ****hiller View Post
    Converting someone else's property or service for your own use and theft of service is a crime

    If their network is unsecured/configured to be open access......no changes/conversion takes place if you connect to the internet thru it.

    Example- I configure my router so anyone within range can see it and use it. A complete stranger passes by, sees the signal and uses it. There is no conversion...despite the fact that it was they, not me who connected to the internet. Consent for usage is implied by me leaving the router configured for open access and broadcasting its SSID. So long as my ISP provider does not have any stipulations in the service contract concerning this type of sharing......no theft has occurred because no hacking/forced intrusion has occurred. Our ISP has no such provision/stipulation. Even if he did, it would not be the stranger who used the connection that would liable....it would be me. I have the contract with the ISP and condoned open usage.

    If this wasn't so, then everyone who accesses an internet connnection at every internet cafe, college campus, motel, hotel, truck stop, yada, yada, yada ....would be guilty of a "conversion" crime.......and so would the provider establishments. On the contrary, it is perfectly legal.
    Nice try in justifying but you're wrong. There is no implied consent by a victim of your taking it must be expressed authorization to not be a taking/converstion. There must also be authority for the permission, that authority is reserved by the provider (service contract - read it), so now you're part of a criminal conspiracy for the conversion, the "victim" being the ISP, without permission of the leased access customer - them too, be they, stupid, unsecured, default password, poorly encrypted, or vulnerable to your advanced hacking skills, its still criminal.
    Last edited by unregistered; 03-06-2008 at 12:57 PM.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fayette County, Ohio
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    5,560

    Default Re: Wireless Internet

    ****ie,
    I'm afraid unregistered, though afraid to be identified, is correct in his/her statements with only one exception. The federal government does not own the air ways, they are a public trust and as OUR REPRESENTATIVES, the feds, regulate it. Another problem with using a network hook up like that is that any one on the network can access, down load files, and store files on your computer.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

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