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  1. #11
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    Default Re: cognitive dissonance people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marjorie View Post
    Well, we'll have to have a fire, too... so far we have a peace pipe, boone's farm, I'll bring some single malt scotch... and let the discussion roll.

    I agree, morals in principle, in theory, sometimes change in the reality of a situation. It's dangerous to state flatly that one would do this o that, or would not do it, or would not put up with something... because then, sure as can be, the lesson as to 'why' comes along. argh.

    I belonged to a church for many years, was an assistant pastor and when the pastor went on to the great pulpit in the sky, was a co-pastor. We had a small board, and some of the members and one board member wanted changes. Only 3 on the board, and a vote was taken that would change the way the church did things and move away from the Christian teachings it was founded upon. After prayer, I had to resign. I could have continued there, in the same position, but would have been a huge hypocrite.

    And you've got it right - sometimes we must wear the other person's shoes a while.

    Interesting topic, Andy!

    thanks Marj...I think so too because it really makes you think.
    For me it makes me think about some of the decissions I make in my life from the way I build certain things to realationships to who I vote for.

    I think what it truly gets down to, like within most things, is being truly honest with yourself. I think sometimes its OK to go against a core belief for different reasons. I mean examining how that core belief became core to begin with is the first thing...because things do change with time..not saying some things should or have to but its good to do a brain/moral check every now and again.

    There were times in my ulustrious building career when I'd do things differently because of my self set morals. Like making sure certain things were "perfect" before I moved onto the next step...but after X amount of years I started realizing that certain steps were OK to leave out...that I wouldn't be sacrificing the integrity of the project. It gave me more time to pay attention to other phases which might not have been as interesting to me but were as equally or maybe even more important within the project. All that gave me more time to complete what I was doing and move on..instead of notoriously getting tied up in the same thing for ridiculously long periods of time so the entire things was "perfect".

    An example is...I have a builder friend that does renovations as well that lives near me. He was hired out by a common friend of ours to make some repairs on the exterior of the house. HE had to remove a very old and large decrotive front round column..fix the soffet area, fix part of the rotted column and replace it.
    Takes the column down and opens up the wood soffet and sees some rotted non bearing 2x material up in there. He sc****s it all out and orders an epoxy wood through the mail (abatron) then mixes up a gallon and pushes it into the sc****d out area...sands it down, puts the soffet back then needs "more" albatron so charges the customer (our friend) for another gallon and orders up yet more which you have to wait days for being its coming via UPS or FedEx. HE repairs the column and reinstalled it. Customer is kinda pissed it took so long and cost him a serious ($$$$$$ ) bundle in Albatron epoxy. I asked my friend why he used Albatron "inside" the soffet area rather than just putting in another 2x. He said because someone might open it up one day and he didn't want it to look like a patch job. He felt the Abatron became more apart of it all (how zen...lol) rather than a patch.

    Personally I think that was nuts! Cost our friend a bundle for something no one would ever see...took forever and everyone became irritated through out the project. But he never veered from what "he believed" to be the proper way of doing things.

    I think sometimes no matter what you believe you need to feel where the other person is standing and how important your belief is or are you just living in a tunnel vision stance.

    Same with politicians...maybe more so with politicians..and their followers. Just like this Iraq war and a lot of Bush's hardcore fans vs people that see it as a mistake. No matter which side you stand on you need to weigh the true meaning of it all...not take sides. You may swear you'll stick with the Republicans or the Democrats like you and your parents before you but sometimes you need to see beyond party lines...in all that you do.

    I'm macrobiotic..have been for three years now faithfully. the diets changed throughout the years because the way the world was when Oshawa started it changed as the years went on so us hardcore macrobiotic people have been open enough to realize some things have to change with the times. Nothing is set in stone.
    BE well
    andy
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  2. #12
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    Default Re: cognitive dissonance people?

    I can tell you've put some serious thought into this, and not just spouting off the top of your head.
    I like that epoxy stuff - got yelled at an ridiculed about it one time from an acquaintance who was a carpenter (obviously, the poor young fella had never been much around boats!). Good stuff and has its uses.

    I had a bathroom remodel done (affected 3 rooms!), and my contactor's a perfectionist. We ran into a few unexpected things, plumbing stack location, moving a floor drain, and a custom vanity that wasn't all it wasn't supposed to be - The whole thing cost me quite a bit more than originally expected (some of it was my own fault for making changes and going with other options), but I reaped the benefits of having a perfectionist work on my house. And I got the special 'family' rate, too. He could have done things differently because i was at work while it was being done, but his reputation was good and I trusted him.

    now, the siding guys were a different story - apparently, from the work I saw or didn't see, they had no qualms about cutting corners they didn't think I'd see or know about. My contractor caught them and made them go back and do it right... of course, don't know what we might have missed - I know now that they sure didn't know what they're doing when it comes to gutters, and I'll have to have 3 of them redone... so it goes back to ethics after all, I think.

    Politics, not strict party line - I watch the candidates and read, and vote for the one with the best history (or at least the least bad!), even if it's a different party affiliation from my norm.

    I don't have any problem with imported food, though I do want to know where it comes from before I decide whether or not I want to eat it. Some things have a 'Fair Trade' sticker or label and that's the best to buy.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: cognitive dissonance people?

    Marj....just a note. There are different "levels" of perfection.
    Whats perfect to one person is shoddy to another.
    And perfection that costs a person more than the project is worth depending on the inention of the project sometimes takes away rather than adds to like what happened to my friend but once again...being honest and upfront is key to any project for all concerned.
    the siding guys sounded more like people trying to get away with things,
    If you look at my web site and see my work what I can say is....if I stuck to the perfection I "used to" abide by I'd never move on to other projects. Some things are just ridiclous IMO...unless of course its spelled out from the get go and people are willing to pay for it. Thats a different story.
    nite : ) *******
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  4. #14
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    Default Re: cognitive dissonance people?

    Andy with your Tipi and peace pipe you'll have to add a thunder bird to you signature.

    When I worked for my customers I made it a habit not to make the decisions like your friend did. I presented the customer with the options, the costs, and my recommendations. I was taught when you are on a job you work for the customer not yourself or a company.I always tried to keep that philosophy.

    By the way back to the subject, engaging in behavior that conflicts with one's beliefs, or from experiencing apparently conflicting phenomena. Would that include getting married to get something you wanted and fighting the flight factor?
    Jack
    Last edited by JLMCDANIEL; 10-18-2007 at 01:05 AM.
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  5. #15
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    Default Re: cognitive dissonance people?

    Hi, Andy. I agree, there are different levels of 'perfection' and of expectations, and of tolerance(s). The siding guys worked differently when I was home or if the boss was on site than they did when no one was watching them... and that's when they got sloppy. THey were supposed to remove and replace some rotted wood before they sided over it, and were also supposed to put 'bird holes with mesh' in the soffit attic vent area, but they didn't do the wood work and they just pulled the boards in the vent area off and put the soffit covers on. The whole purpose of the bird holes with mesh was to keep spiders out of the attic! Now i have to pay for extra attic dusting, and I made the guy give me money off for that. And when I found that they didn't do the wood replacement, I told my contractor and he unwound on them about that and about the holes. He had used that company previously on his buildings and jobs, but because of the way they did my house, they'll get no more work from him. There was another thing they screwed up - when the original builder built it, he had a pipe for grey kitchen water coming out the back, it had since been capped, and my contractor told the siding guys to cut the pipe flush to the house and cap it. Well, they cut it flush, didn't cap it, and water would come out of it when I ran the dishwasher or the sink. argh. they had to fix that, too.

    One more horror story - I have a small group of trees in my back yard that I call the 'grove'. It used to be thicker and more overgrown than it is now. There's also a gas station about a half mile from my house. When I had my roof replaced, they were here working while I was at work. I couldn't leave the house unlocked so they had access to the bathrom. I like to walk around my yard, and discovered while walking through the little grove that those guys made like bears in the woods. I could not believe it! Their boss made them clean up and stayed on site after that. Kinda makes me wonder if these guys would have done things the same if a man and not a woman had hired them....

  6. #16
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    Default Re: cognitive dissonance people?

    By the way back to the subject, engaging in behavior that conflicts with one's beliefs, or from experiencing apparently conflicting phenomena. Would that include getting married to get something you wanted and fighting the flight factor?

    That's a toughie! Seems there's more there that needs looking at.. depends on what it was the person wanted and why they want to fly away. Did they marry to be around their children? Or for a purely materialistic selfish reason? Is it so bad that they want to run away from it? Have both parties really given the marriage their best shot? Truly? How do they feel about each other? About the situation? About themselves? What's keeping them in the marriage?
    Was there ever love? If so, where is that love now? Can it be revived? Do they want to try anymore?
    (my goodness, can I ask any more questions?!)

  7. #17
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    Default Re: cognitive dissonance people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marjorie View Post
    Hi, Andy. I agree, there are different levels of 'perfection' and of expectations, and of tolerance(s). The siding guys worked differently when I was home or if the boss was on site than they did when no one was watching them... and that's when they got sloppy. THey were supposed to remove and replace some rotted wood before they sided over it, and were also supposed to put 'bird holes with mesh' in the soffit attic vent area, but they didn't do the wood work and they just pulled the boards in the vent area off and put the soffit covers on. The whole purpose of the bird holes with mesh was to keep spiders out of the attic! Now i have to pay for extra attic dusting, and I made the guy give me money off for that. And when I found that they didn't do the wood replacement, I told my contractor and he unwound on them about that and about the holes. He had used that company previously on his buildings and jobs, but because of the way they did my house, they'll get no more work from him. There was another thing they screwed up - when the original builder built it, he had a pipe for grey kitchen water coming out the back, it had since been capped, and my contractor told the siding guys to cut the pipe flush to the house and cap it. Well, they cut it flush, didn't cap it, and water would come out of it when I ran the dishwasher or the sink. argh. they had to fix that, too.

    One more horror story - I have a small group of trees in my back yard that I call the 'grove'. It used to be thicker and more overgrown than it is now. There's also a gas station about a half mile from my house. When I had my roof replaced, they were here working while I was at work. I couldn't leave the house unlocked so they had access to the bathrom. I like to walk around my yard, and discovered while walking through the little grove that those guys made like bears in the woods. I could not believe it! Their boss made them clean up and stayed on site after that. Kinda makes me wonder if these guys would have done things the same if a man and not a woman had hired them....

    Well it sounds to me like these guys had no morals what so ever. They sound like butchers so cognitive dissonance hardly even applies really regarding them.
    Today I saw a really good movie and all through it I was thinking how this movie was the poster child for the heading of this thread I started.

    Gone Baby Gone

    Drama
    R
    Release Date: Oct 19, 2007
    Starring: Morgan Freeman,Casey Affleck,Michelle Monaghan,Ed Harris,Robert Wahlberg
    Directed by: Ben Affleck

    All through it one person after the next brought c/d to my mind especially the ending. Really really good movie I thought.
    If you go see it tell me if you got what I did from it.
    BTW...my wife and I dissagreed at the end...thats all I'm going to say...lol
    Last edited by andybuildz; 10-20-2007 at 09:57 PM.
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  8. #18
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    Default Re: cognitive dissonance people?

    Quote Originally Posted by JLMCDANIEL View Post
    Andy with your Tipi and peace pipe you'll have to add a thunder bird to you signature.

    When I worked for my customers I made it a habit not to make the decisions like your friend did. I presented the customer with the options, the costs, and my recommendations. I was taught when you are on a job you work for the customer not yourself or a company.I always tried to keep that philosophy.

    By the way back to the subject, engaging in behavior that conflicts with one's beliefs, or from experiencing apparently conflicting phenomena. Would that include getting married to get something you wanted and fighting the flight factor?
    Jack

    Thunderbird? Well...I don't drink...especially thunderbird....so maybe I'll stick with the Buffalo.lol.
    And regarding the last question...like we say to people coming here to ask home improvement questions...we'll need a little more information to give you a proper answer...lol.
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  9. #19
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    Default Re: cognitive dissonance people?

    Quote Originally Posted by andybuildz View Post
    Thunderbird? Well...I don't drink...especially thunderbird....so maybe I'll stick with the Buffalo.lol.
    And regarding the last question...like we say to people coming here to ask home improvement questions...we'll need a little more information to give you a proper answer...lol.
    thun·der·bird (thŭn'dər-būrd')
    n.
    A spirit of thunder, lightning, and rain in the form of a huge bird in the mythology of certain Native American peoples.

    #msnlivesearch1{width:300px;height:60px;background-image:url(/main/images/livesearch300.gif);background-position:top left;background-repeat:no-repeat;**Jack
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    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  10. #20
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    Default Re: cognitive dissonance people?

    I know I know...I wuz only kiddin' Jack
    The tipi is my logo for a variety of reasons and each house i do I erect a 20' tipi instead of a piece of fir tree on the roof at the front gable.
    I figured this house'd be sold in about five years which is as long as I thought my tipi skin'd last. I was right about the tipi skin so the house better hurry up....who knew the market'd be so bad now...certainly not my tipi...lol..ugh
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