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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Whoa, major electrical safety violations

    Quote Originally Posted by NEC View Post
    Ummm, yes I have a masters license. I was curious to how power was cut on a single residence when a transformer tap might feed multiple homes in different areas of the country and with different power suppliers regulations...... It goes beyond the NEC and is not really covered in NFPA-70E.

    I would say that a lateral cut to the home is no more safe either by an electrical contractor or the "Power Company" as long as I follow 70E.

    I would also say that fault current at a residence is seldom more than 10k and arc flash is minimal.
    I have worked on a few different utility properties during my 37 year career during "storm trouble." Every property Ive worked on had similar means to diconnect individual overhead services. You cut the individual service at the point of attachment on the pole or the house. If the service is a midspan tap, that is to say the deadend connection is between poles, the disconnect is still done in the same manner. As I said, UG residential distribution has come a long way in my career. Disconnects are done either in a transformer or a secondary enclosure. Subway, or what i call conventional UG that feeds from manholes is disconnected in the manhole that the service originates from.

    I will preface my next statement with the disclaimer that I am not an engineer. But here goes, available fault current is partially determined by the total KVA of the transformers feeding the services. Obviously distance from the source and conductor size come into play. Lets say you are going to disconnect a single phase 120/208 service that feeds from a 3 phase overhead network. The network is fed by 5-3 phase banks of 225 KVA each and the banks are tied together at the secondaries with the standard malimiter fuses. Your service is 50 ft long and is # 2 stranded CU. What is the avaible fault current should a phase to phase flash occur.

    If you look at NFPA 70e, within the first few pages, you will find that electric utilities are exempt so those regs. dont apply to me. OSHA 1910.269 apply and say I can wear 100% cotton. I am not required to wear FR by osha and I work on equipment with much higher available fault current that 120/240 house services. 70e is a little much, i would be wearing a full flash hood if 70e applied to me.
    Last edited by Edge1289; 11-17-2009 at 09:09 PM. Reason: missing wire size

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Whoa, major electrical safety violations

    70e is a little much for anyone working in the real world.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  3. #33
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    Dec 2009
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    2

    Default Re: Whoa, major electrical safety violations

    I have been a huge fan of your show for many years, but I was absolutely astonished to see Program 2905 and the installation of a temporary electrical service under live power conditions.

    Live work by electricians is covered in the US by the NFPA 70E “Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace”. During show 2905, electrician Allen Gallant totally ignored even the most basic safety procedures for live work dictated by NFPA 70E. These include the use of appropriate Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) for protection against arc flash and electrocution. In this case, minimum PPE should have included safety glasses, a hard hat, and voltage-rated gloves. None of these were in evidence during the live splicing operation.

    Mr. Gallant’s statement during the show about the safety of the operation relating to the composite ladder he was using was both incomplete and incorrect. A very high percentage of live-work electrical accidents involve arc-flash rather than electrocution. A composite ladder does nothing to protect against arc-flash.

    Moreover, the fact that the script lacked a “Don’t try this at home” warning is of great concern. Given the DIY nature of This Old House viewers, depicting such a potentially dangerous live operation without appropriate safety gear or warnings is just plain irresponsible. This Old House needs to take a leadership position in jobsite and shop safety, not the sort of "cowboy” position embodied in the electrical work on Show 2905.

    Steve Terry
    Member, National Electrical Code Panel 15

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    693

    Default Re: Whoa, major electrical safety violations

    Well there is a Steve Terry listed on the panel 15 alternates in the 08 NEC.

    For those that missed what all of the hubbub is about........

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7DXghWkuP8

    I'll first say that the segment should not have been aired but Alan probably came from old school training like me, where what he did was pretty common at one time. I have done it many times myself........ My only rule was never in a rain storm

    The segment has been resoundingly trashed on a few electrical/electricians discussion forums and that does not surprise me.

    On the other hand I am rewriting our company safety policy and employee training to comply with 70E and have gone to these same forums with some basic questions about other companies compliance......... Many have no clue what "PPE" even means and have never even heard of NFPA 70E.

    I am of slightly below average intelligence and wading through 70E. It has been quite the task.

    Oh, I think Steve missed the now required hearing protection part.

    Remember to wear your safety glasses folks.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    2

    Default Re: Whoa, major electrical safety violations

    Quote Originally Posted by NEC View Post
    Well there is a Steve Terry listed on the panel 15 alternates in the 08 NEC.

    For those that missed what all of the hubbub is about........

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7DXghWkuP8

    I'll first say that the segment should not have been aired but Alan probably came from old school training like me, where what he did was pretty common at one time. I have done it many times myself........ My only rule was never in a rain storm

    The segment has been resoundingly trashed on a few electrical/electricians discussion forums and that does not surprise me.

    On the other hand I am rewriting our company safety policy and employee training to comply with 70E and have gone to these same forums with some basic questions about other companies compliance......... Many have no clue what "PPE" even means and have never even heard of NFPA 70E.

    I am of slightly below average intelligence and wading through 70E. It has been quite the task.

    Oh, I think Steve missed the now required hearing protection part.

    Remember to wear your safety glasses folks.
    Right you are, NEC--hearing protection--I missed it! And I'm glad to hear that I am actually on CMP 15!

    I came late to this party, and attempted to send my comments to the producers of TOH. The email bounced (a full mailbox!), so I thought the forum was the next best thing--and I just copied the message here.

    You guys have obviously thrashed through this egregious error on the part of the TOH producers, and I am not sure I have any more to add--but it sounds like we are all on basically the same page!

    BTW, I used to just walk into a facility and hook up PQ analysis equipment to a 3000A panels-off service in shirtsleeves. Then I read NFPA 70E. I guess we all need to operate differently now in 2009.

    Steve Terry

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Whoa, major electrical safety violations

    I have a couple questions. In the real world tools take a beating, especially company furnished tools. Is there a standard in 70E that requires recertification of the tools V rating? Is there a color code or marking requirement to designate the tool as V Rated?

    Jack
    Last edited by JLMCDANIEL; 12-01-2009 at 11:42 PM.
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Whoa, major electrical safety violations

    Another question, are you actually going to put on a pair of V rated gloves every time you change a CB?
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  8. #38
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    693

    Default Re: Whoa, major electrical safety violations

    Quote Originally Posted by JLMCDANIEL View Post
    Another question, are you actually going to put on a pair of V rated gloves every time you change a CB?
    Jack
    "Company Policy" For us will say yes you will......... I am wondering about the laundering requirements for PPE......... Do we now need to keep a log of how the clothing was washed? What it was washed in? The water temp? The cleaning product used? How it was dried? How it is stored?

  9. #39
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    Feb 2009
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    693

    Default Re: Whoa, major electrical safety violations

    Quote Originally Posted by JLMCDANIEL View Post
    I have a couple questions. In the real world tools take a beating, especially company furnished tools. Is there a standard in 70E that requires recertification of the tools V rating? Is there a color code or marking requirement to designate the tool as V Rated?

    Jack
    You can access NFPA 70 Here.

    http://www.nfpa.org/index.asp?src=nfpa

    Article 250 covers tools.

    Can not find anything on color but everything I have seen is orange.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Whoa, major electrical safety violations

    I've seen orange, red, yellow, yellow and blue,red and yellow, blue and orange,red and blue, black and yellow, orange and yellow. I've also seen most of these colors on cheap tools made in China.

    How is an inspector going to know if the tools are/were V rated and if they are still compliant? It would seem to me that if the requirement is made a standard for identification would also be specified.

    How are the cloths going to be identified? Is the inspector going to have to climb a ladder and check a collar label or is there going to be a big 70E on the back?

    It would seem to me that to many of these standards are going to be hard to enforce or verify.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

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