+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    177

    Default details for small bathroom lighting and outlets

    I was hoping someone might be able to steer me on a few items.

    1. It is my understanding the there needs to be a single outlet near the sink that is GFI, 20 AMP on its own line. Is this true? The lights cannot be downstream of the GFI?

    2. We want to put a lighting fixture over the tub..about 4 feet away from the shower head. Is this OK...as long as the fixture is GFI protected? Is there anything special I need to do for the cables or the box leading up to it? The fixture sits outside of the wall and is rated for damp (not wet) locations

    Thanks for any help anyone is willing to give.

    -Walt

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    7,243

    Default Re: details for small bathroom lighting and outlets

    While I can't quote code, I can tell you this. Lighting is separate from outlets so that if you pop the GFI, you're not left standing there in the dark. It's pretty much the same concept throughout the rest of the house with outlets and lighting circuits remaining separate. This also helps reduce/eliminate lighting from dimming or flickering when a load is put onto to the outlet.

    As far as lighting in the shower. Any fixture inside the shower/bath envelop, the bulb has to be enclosed to prevent water splash from hitting the bulb and causing a possible shatter. It also prevent glass shards from raining down should the bulb burst of it's own volition.

    Lastly, codes are now becoming even more stupidly restrictive by requiring the use of fluorescent fixtures. From an environmental perspective, fluorescent fixtures are horrendously terrible, both at saving energy and at not polluting the environment. Wanna save money and the environment? Use LED lighting.
    I suffer from CDO ... Its like OCD, but in alphabetical order, LIKE IT SHOULD BE!!!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Pacific Northwet
    Posts
    1,675

    Default Re: details for small bathroom lighting and outlets

    To quote the National Electrical Code (not sure what edition):

    410.10(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord connected luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the space directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for damp locations, or marked for wet locations where subject to shower spray.

    As long as the fixture attaches directly to the box (isn't suspended by a cord or chain) and is marked for a damp location, it should be OK. GFI protection is not required. I would recommend the bulb be totally enclosed.

    Part of the reason for the restrictions mentioned in the code is so that someone standing in the tub does not grab on to the fixture if they slip.
    The "Senior Member" designation under my name doesn't mean I know a lot, it just means I talk a lot.I've been a DIYer since I was 12 (thanks, Dad!). I have read several books on various home improvement topics. I do not have any current code books I can refer to. I was an apprentice plumber for two years.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    177

    Default Re: details for small bathroom lighting and outlets

    Thanks so much for these comments. This has already helped me a lot.

    -Walt

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Columbiana, Alabama
    Posts
    739

    Default Re: details for small bathroom lighting and outlets

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencepost View Post
    To quote the National Electrical Code (not sure what edition):

    410.10(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord connected luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the space directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for damp locations, or marked for wet locations where subject to shower spray.

    As long as the fixture attaches directly to the box (isn't suspended by a cord or chain) and is marked for a damp location, it should be OK. GFI protection is not required. I would recommend the bulb be totally enclosed.

    Part of the reason for the restrictions mentioned in the code is so that someone standing in the tub does not grab on to the fixture if they slip.
    Fencepost, your info is still correct, per the 2014 Code.

    Also, per 210.50(D) a GFCI protected receptacle is required within 3 ft of the outside rim of each sink in all bathrooms. So, depending on the layout of the sinks more than one receptacle may be required in a bathroom.
    A receptacle located more than 12" below the top of the sink does not satisfy this requirement.

    210.11 (C)(3) requires the bathroom circuits be rated 20A but two bathrooms may be on the same circuit if all they supply is the sink receptacles.
    If the bathroom sink circuit supplies anything else such lights, exhaust fan etc. then each bathroom must be on it's own 20A circuit.

    Most shower lights don't need to be GFCI protected, but most fans do, so check the manufacturers labels.
    Good Luck from Columbiana, Alabama
    Maurice Turgeon, Hidden Content

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    177

    Default Re: details for small bathroom lighting and outlets

    Just to clarify....does this mean if one dedicated 20A line supplies the bathroom that it can go to the lights as well as the outlet? If so, do the lights need to be NOT downstream of the GFI?

    Does anyone know if we use an LED strip in the tub area, put the power supply in remote location and run the low voltage lines to the strip...will this meet code? If so, are there any specifics on how the low voltage lines penetrate the wall board and run to the strip?

    Thanks again for the help. I REALLY appreciate it.

    -Walt

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Columbiana, Alabama
    Posts
    739

    Default Re: details for small bathroom lighting and outlets

    Quote Originally Posted by waltdeckhouse View Post
    Just to clarify....does this mean if one dedicated 20A line supplies the bathroom that it can go to the lights as well as the outlet? If so, do the lights need to be NOT downstream of the GFI?

    Does anyone know if we use an LED strip in the tub area, put the power supply in remote location and run the low voltage lines to the strip...will this meet code? If so, are there any specifics on how the low voltage lines penetrate the wall board and run to the strip?

    Thanks again for the help. I REALLY appreciate it.

    -Walt
    Yes the feed to the bath can go to the GFCI receptacle(s) and lights that do not have to be GFCI protected can be supplied before the GFCI.

    All loads or lights of any voltage must be listed and installed according to manufacturers instructions.
    If LED lights are listed for wet locations they can be installed in a shower. Some such lights might be driveway or pool LEDs.

    LV wire (called Class 2 which is usually 30V max) can be some form of cable or cord and run throught walls, since it can't shock or cause fires.
    Good Luck from Columbiana, Alabama
    Maurice Turgeon, Hidden Content

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Pacific Northwet
    Posts
    1,675

    Default Re: details for small bathroom lighting and outlets

    Quote Originally Posted by The Semi-Retired Electric View Post
    LV wire (called Class 2 which is usually 30V max) can be some form of cable or cord and run throught walls, since it can't shock or cause fires.
    I must respectfully disagree. Low voltage can still cause serious shock and can start fires, but as long as it's installed properly according to manufacturer's instructions, it should be OK. Wires installed inside of walls should be rated for that location.

    In a wet environment such as a shower, the electrical resistance of human skin is much lower, which means that low voltage wiring can be more likely to cause a shock -- as little as 10 mA of current can create a noticeable shock.

    Connect a thin-gauge wire across a 9V battery and it will get hot enough to start a fire.
    The "Senior Member" designation under my name doesn't mean I know a lot, it just means I talk a lot.I've been a DIYer since I was 12 (thanks, Dad!). I have read several books on various home improvement topics. I do not have any current code books I can refer to. I was an apprentice plumber for two years.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Columbiana, Alabama
    Posts
    739

    Default Re: details for small bathroom lighting and outlets

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencepost View Post
    I must respectfully disagree. Low voltage can still cause serious shock and can start fires, but as long as it's installed properly according to manufacturer's instructions, it should be OK. Wires installed inside of walls should be rated for that location.

    In a wet environment such as a shower, the electrical resistance of human skin is much lower, which means that low voltage wiring can be more likely to cause a shock -- as little as 10 mA of current can create a noticeable shock.

    Connect a thin-gauge wire across a 9V battery and it will get hot enough to start a fire.
    True, 12V off a car battery can shock especially if your skin is wet or you have a cut. And it certainly can delivery enough energy to cause a fire.

    But listed class 2 & 3 power sources can't deliver enough energy to create a hot enough spark or have a voltage level high enough to shock a normal person. Per Code "a dry cell battery shall be considered an inherently limited Class 2 power source provided, the voltage is 30V or less and the capacity is equal to or less than that available from series connected No. 6 carbon zinc cells."

    Contact resistance is really the key.

    Art. 725 is very complicated and I just gave a brief summary.

    I've used current limited class 2 & 3 circuits all over hydrogen, oxygen, natural gas, propane etc. in thousands of 24V DC applications without any problems.
    Good Luck from Columbiana, Alabama
    Maurice Turgeon, Hidden Content

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    177

    Default Re: details for small bathroom lighting and outlets

    Not sure if I was clear about this....but my thought was to use a power supply with circuit protection to prevent a chance of shocking someone. something like this

    http://www.superbrightleds.com/morei...upply/70/3556/

    I am just not sure how to penetrate the wall board if I run the LV cables in the wall and mount the LED strip on the ceiling or off the wall.

    Any thoughts on that?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •