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  1. #11
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    Feb 2014
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    Lightbulb Re: Unusual outdoor project - need advice

    Hopefully before the end of the week I'll get started working on the hybrid solution while still considering what cable size to use.

    I'll see about posting more picture links as the project progresses.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Tennessee
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    Default Re: Unusual outdoor project - need advice

    Actually I like your PVC pipe solution the best. The reason if failed was that you don't have any racking support in the longitudinal direction. You put a lot of weight on it and it will collapse toward one end of the enclosure or the other. If you rebuilt the PVC system, then put one of your 4x4 posts in the center of each end and tie the PVC ridge into the 4x4. The put in some type of diagonal piece from the 4x4 to the ridge pole at each end. The diagonal brace should go from about half way to 2/3rd the way up the 4x4 to a point of equal distance down the ridge pole.

    The only issue then is the weight of the snow pushing the ridge pole down in the center and splaying the fence post the PVC arches are attached to. For that, you may need to buttress the fence posts with a second post angled outward from the top of the post to the ground about a foot and a half away from the post, like you see on oval shaped above ground swimming pools.

    BTW, if the enclosure had rounded ends to form a shape like an oval shaped above ground pool, then you could arch the ridge pole down at each end like the rafter poles and get the longitudinal strength I spoke of without the 4x4 posts. Dogs like the rounded edges better than square corners, most animals do. They can run around the edge without stopping to make abrupt turns.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    20

    Default Re: Unusual outdoor project - need advice

    Quote Originally Posted by keith3267 View Post
    Actually I like your PVC pipe solution the best. The reason if failed was that you don't have any racking support in the longitudinal direction. You put a lot of weight on it and it will collapse toward one end of the enclosure or the other. If you rebuilt the PVC system, then put one of your 4x4 posts in the center of each end and tie the PVC ridge into the 4x4. The put in some type of diagonal piece from the 4x4 to the ridge pole at each end. The diagonal brace should go from about half way to 2/3rd the way up the 4x4 to a point of equal distance down the ridge pole.

    The only issue then is the weight of the snow pushing the ridge pole down in the center and splaying the fence post the PVC arches are attached to. For that, you may need to buttress the fence posts with a second post angled outward from the top of the post to the ground about a foot and a half away from the post, like you see on oval shaped above ground swimming pools.

    BTW, if the enclosure had rounded ends to form a shape like an oval shaped above ground pool, then you could arch the ridge pole down at each end like the rafter poles and get the longitudinal strength I spoke of without the 4x4 posts. Dogs like the rounded edges better than square corners, most animals do. They can run around the edge without stopping to make abrupt turns.
    Thanks for the ideas Keith. Actually the fence posts themselves did not budge, but the PVC itself collapsed as 3/4" PVC is very flexable.

    I'll be starting to do a wood roof frame starting at the far end where it collapsed the worst and use tarp over that, I won't be able to afford to do the entire span like that all at once (about 36 feet to start) so in the meantime the PVC will be put back up for the remainder of the length for now and I'll add more wood roof framing over time.

    Since heavy snow is very rare here that should be ok for the time being, if they would predict a heavy snow before I had it all framed in wood I would likely just temporarily remove the tarp from the PVC section.

    I'll see about posting links to pictures after I have gotten that wood roof frame up so you can see how it looks before putting the tarp on it.

  4. #14
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    Tennessee
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    Default Re: Unusual outdoor project - need advice

    If you make trusses like I first described, I should have added that you will need racking support for them as well. You can use a long piece of 2x or even a couple spliced together with plywood gussets that will go from the ridge of the end truss to the collar tie of the next truss. That will really stiffen up the structure.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    20

    Default Re: Unusual outdoor project - need advice

    Ok, things have been busy for a while, but I got started on the wood frame for the canopy and wanted to share some photos. (I am putting the rafters 2 feet apart)

    I had put back up half of the PVC framing in the meantime so at least half the yard would stay dry and shaded, but later added extra frame support that was needed because strong wind gusts were able to flex the PVC too much and cause a collapse. It is two vertical 1 1/2 PVC pipes fastened to underneath the top of the PVC frame

    here is the photo showing the extra support I just mentioned for the PVC part -

    http://scdiy.webs.com/apps/photos/ph...toid=190518390

    start of the wood frame for the canopy -

    http://scdiy.webs.com/apps/photos/ph...toid=190518391

    another photo of the wood frame start -

    http://scdiy.webs.com/apps/photos/ph...toid=190518394

    another view of wood frame start -

    http://scdiy.webs.com/apps/photos/ph...toid=190518392

    wood frame start from further back -

    http://scdiy.webs.com/apps/photos/ph...toid=190518393

  6. #16
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    Tennessee
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    Default Re: Unusual outdoor project - need advice

    Keep us posted, I'm interested in seeing how this turns out.

  7. #17
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    Feb 2014
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    20

    Default Re: Unusual outdoor project - need advice

    Quote Originally Posted by keith3267 View Post
    Keep us posted, I'm interested in seeing how this turns out.
    No problem, I'll see about posting more pics after getting a reasonable amount more done.

    Some weeks I can get more done than other weeks because some weeks it might be raining on my off days, also I have to keep up with everyday chores

    Also the fact that I am doing this project by myself. (and yes it is possible as I connect the short cross beams that go between the rafters to the previously put up rafter and pre-drill the starter holes thru the rafters so as soon as I set it in place I can use a screwdriver bit in a drill to quickly fasten the next rafter in place) (just be careful when doing this stuff by yourself, especially when you're up on a ladder) (also, I have used bungee cords to temporarily hold some things in place until I could fasten things)
    Last edited by DIY SC; 03-19-2014 at 03:29 PM.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    6,767

    Default Re: Unusual outdoor project - need advice

    From the pics, this rafter system will give you a much stronger framing than the previous PVC pipe system.

  9. #19
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    Dec 2007
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    Tennessee
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    Default Re: Unusual outdoor project - need advice

    I went back and looked at your pics again. You don't have any collar ties, without those, as you get further away from the end posts, the rafters will splay out. Your trusses should look like a flattened out A, not a ∧.
    Last edited by keith3267; 03-21-2014 at 10:45 AM.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    20

    Default Re: Unusual outdoor project - need advice

    Quote Originally Posted by keith3267 View Post
    I went back and looked at your pics again. You don't have any collar ties, without those, as you get further away from the end posts, the rafters will splay out. Your trusses should look like a flattened out A, not a ∧.
    Thanks for noticing. I was already considering adding a collar tie every third one.

    According to one web site -

    "Collar ties are probably not needed if metal connectors were used to fasten the rafters to the ridge."

    I have been using metal hurricane ties to connect the rafters to the ridge board so while according to that web site I don't have to use collar ties, I was still considering adding one every third rafter for added safety, what do you think ?

    (this is my first roof framing of this size)

    (below quoted from that construction web site)

    A collar tie is a tension tie in the upper third of opposing gable rafters that is intended to resist rafter separation from the ridge beam during periods of unbalanced loads, such as that caused by wind uplift, or unbalanced roof loads from snow. The 2012 International Residential Code does not require collar ties (or collar beams). However, in those situations when they are specified, collar ties are usually installed in the upper third of the roof between opposing rafters. In high-wind areas, uplift can tear a roof off of a house if it's not properly attached.

    Collar ties must be at least 1 x 4 inches (nominal), spaced not more than 4 feet on center.

    Other facts about collar ties:

    •They may or may not be required, depending on jurisdiction. InterNACHI inspectors should not call out a lack of collar ties as a defect unless they know that collar ties were required in the jurisdiction where the home is located at the time the home was built.

    •Collar ties are probably not needed if metal connectors were used to fasten the rafters to the ridge.

    •Where they are required, they should be installed on every other rafter where rafters are on 24-inch centers.

    •Collar ties, contrary to popular belief, do not prevent walls from spreading.

    (end of quote)

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