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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
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    5

    Question Help needed amount of baseboard and circulator pump size??????

    Hello all, help greatly appreciated. I am about to tackle two heating jobs in the house but have gotten way conflicting advice from local supply house. Hoping to get help and unbiased info here. House in northeast. Room is new construction with 2 x 6 walls insulated, with 2 x 10 ceiling insulated as well.

    First project is as follows.

    Second story addition room is 25' x 36', so 3 walls to the environment (25' twice). Ceiling height is 8' center angling down to 4' knee wall so not full height. Room is approx 900 total sq feet, including 91 square feet of windows. Total round trip run from boiler start to finish is 426 feet counting fittings, valves etc.

    Wanted to zone as one loop. Told both yes and no.

    Can't figure out footage of baseboard room needs, but easiest way for me to install is complete perimeter of room of approx. 86 - 100 feet depending upon install.

    Advised circulator Taco 0015 $125 up to Bell & Gossett PD37T 3phase at $1,750. Don't have 3 phase in house, so not an option anyway.

    Wanted to run black pipe from boiler 1 - 1 1/4 up to radiator. Told I couldn't mix with copper pipe. Don't know why since black pipe at boiler end anyway. Is there a drawback to running black pipe? Wanted to get as much hot water up to radiator based upon distance from boiler. Comments??

    Any help in clarifying job greatly appreciated.

    Thanks, Gregg

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Montreal Canada
    Posts
    354

    Default Re: Help needed amount of baseboard and circulator pump size??????

    1) yes you can connect black pipe to copper in a heating system as it is a closed loop.
    2)I would suggest running one pipe and then splitting into two zones with balancing valves, then rejoining both loops back together, if you do not size your radiators to compensate for the heat loose equally then one system will be hotter than the other. You could also use braukman self controlled thermostat valves to balance things.
    3) I always like Armstrong s-35 pumps. it is only 110 volts and is the industry standard in canada. You can check out the sizing if you like.
    Bill

    Armstrong S35 CAST Iron pump Circulator, 1 Phase 115 V, w/2 inch circular Flanges

    Quantity in Basket: none
    Code: 174033-013
    Price: $575.58

    Shipping Weight: 36.00 pounds



    Quantity:
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    Armstrong S Series circulators feature the unique Armstrong shaft and bearing module for ease of serviceability and maximum interchangeability. Oversized shafts of alloy steel machined to exact tolerances. Impellers are constructed from non-ferrous material and are designed for optimal water delivery. Available in bronze-fitted and all-bronze construction.
    The S-35 has a 1/6 hp 1800 RPM motor and can be run on 115 volts, single phase. See the attached submittal spec sheet for the flow curve. Part number 174033-013 is a CAST IRON (Bronze fitted) Pump with bronzed faced cast iron flanges.

    View Recirculating Product Datasheet (pdf format)

    Click here to return to the full list of Armstrong Series S Pumps.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Montreal Canada
    Posts
    354

    Default Re: Help needed amount of baseboard and circulator pump size??????

    1) yes you can connect black pipe to copper in a heating system as it is a closed loop.
    2)I would suggest running one pipe and then splitting into two zones with balancing valves, then rejoining both loops back together, if you do not size your radiators to compensate for the heat loose equally then one system will be hotter than the other. You could also use braukman self controlled thermostat valves to balance things.
    3) I always like Armstrong s-25 pumps. it is only 110 volts and is the industry standard in canada. You can check out the sizing if you like.
    Bill

    correction in should be s 25 not s 35 , s 35 if way to strong

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Help needed amount of baseboard and circulator pump size??????

    Bill, thanks for the replies. Any way to get a rough sketch or drawing as to how to split into 2 zones with the one pump?

    Prior to your response, another supply house replied with the following: Room only requires 25 feet of baseboard and I could use a Taco 007 pump. 25 feet of baseboard doesn't seem adequate based upon the 91 sq feet of windows.

    Can you advise how to calculate heat rate transfer? Thanks. Gregg

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Montreal Canada
    Posts
    354

    Default Re: Help needed amount of baseboard and circulator pump size??????

    1) the heat transfer rate will come from the radiator catalog, it will be listed by gpm temperature drop and supply water temp.
    2) the pipe would leave the boiler then go to the pump then go a tee that would separate the two zones , before each rad you would have a braukman control valve, then the rad and then the two would join together and go back to the boiler room.
    there are some questions that need to be answered before starting this project
    How is the boiler controlled? Are the other rads copper or cast iron? what will bring on the pump? Is there another pump? is there an aqua stat? what is the lay out of the heating pipes in the rest of the house? is the boiler cast iron copper?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Help needed amount of baseboard and circulator pump size??????

    Bill, I get the supply side. Per your suggestion, my idea would be pump down by boiler and then run 1 1/4 black pipe up to 2nd floor and then tee to separate into 2 loops? Baseboard each outside wall at 25 feet plus additional 18 foot for 3rd wall - total of 43 feet per side. (split 36' wall in half in center) It seems that I would have to than run a separate return for each side of the room down to common return somewhere near my supply side tee install. Is that correct? Essentially extra pipe ( 86+ feet) regarding return. Or is it possible to 90 degree elbow at the end of each radiator run (43 feet and center of room) than into a tee and common return, or will there be a water pressure issue regarding the supply from two different sides being teed centrally close to the end of each supply feed?

    Do I gain any benefit from using 1 1/4 black pipe over 3/4 copper for all? Was hoping with one loop in larger cast iron supply to radiators (hence additional hot water above capacity of 3/4 pipe) would be of some benefit so wouldn't have to split into two loops.

    Boiler to be controlled by Argo controller. Individual pumps per zone. Copper baseboard throughout the house. Separate thermostat for this room. Aqua stat in boiler. Pipes in rest of house copper, presently one pump with three zone valves. Boiler is cast iron, doubt it is copper. Thanks for your time and efforts.

    Gregg

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    173

    Default Re: Help needed amount of baseboard and circulator pump size??????

    Gregg,

    There is no need to add another circulator pump when doing this project---you can use the existing pump and just add another Taco 570 series zone valve---there are sites below you can view to learn how this is done.

    You first have to do a simple HEAT LOSS CALCULATION for the new addition to determine approx how much heat the addition is losing per hour on an average winter's day--the square footage is calculated, which is approx 900 sq.ft.---this is multiplied by the btu amount of heat lost according to the size, number & condition of all the windows, plus the loss thru the walls/ceilings---this could be approx 35 BTU/sq.ft-40BTU/sq.ft.---the area in sq ft (900) is multiplied by the 35-40 for an approx of 31,500 btu/hour heat loss----this hourly heat loss has to be overcome by the amount of baseboard that is installed (assuming the boiler is pumping hot water thru the zone at approx 160-170 degrees-typical for these systems) so that there's enough baseboard footage to pump sufficient heat into the room.

    Baseboard is rated at producing 430-500 btu per linear foot with boiler water that is approx 160-170 degrees hot---430 btu/hr baseboard X 75 ft. of baseboard comes to 32,250 btu/hr heat, which would be sufficient to heat the room when the previous heat loss figure is 31,500 btu/hr (see above)---other factors like the condition of the windows & your location/severity of your winters, etc. have to be considered---what is your general location in the Northeast???
    Windows should all be double-pane & relatively new---any single pane leaky windows must be replaced to avoid high heating bills and to avoid hard to heat rooms. Run the baseboard in the room so it runs under all walls that have windows--this will make for a more comfortable room & the temperature difference between the hot baseboard & windows will help circulate the warm air to all parts of the room.

    I see no problem in zoning this room as 1 loop (zone)--black pipe is not adviseable due to its cost & connections cost to the baseboard sections--copper is easily connected to the copper baseboard members, but copper is also expensive---most installers now using PEX plastic due to its lightness & its workability & is much less expensive than the alternatives---PEX is also much less likely TO FREEZE & BURST during a power outage--a freeze-up & burst can be a real horror-show, especially if it occurs (as it often does) inside the walls (supply/return piping) where the repair person has to rip out walls to get at the repair--a 10% solution of propylene glycol (Home Depot) is recommended if you live in an area that has constant power outages or zero degree or below winter weather.

    Run a single 3/4" supply/return pipe to & thru all the baseboards in series, & return it to the pump in the cellar on the boiler---it's very common to run 3 to 4 zones like this for all parts of the house running all the zones off the same circulator (pump) using Taco zone valves & have a separate T-stat in each of the rooms/zones so you can control heat level & comfort.

    You would want to assemble & install the baseboard & piping connections first in the room (don't forget to add 5 or 6 bleed valves at various points around the baseboard, especially at any high points where air can accumulate--the "hot water baseboard piping diagram images" site below has images of how bleed valves are installed in brass elbows or couplings to allow system air removal) & work your way back to the boiler to avoid too much down-time on the boiler with the cold weather upon us---this would minimize the lack of heat in the house until you make the boiler connections---it would also allow you to call in a contractor if needed to do this phase of the job, if needed.

    The "images" site also show how an indirect DHW (domestic hot water-40 gallons typical) heater is set up as another "zone" so that the boiler produces HW for showers/bathing dishwasher, etc.---strongly recommended.

    Mr. Richard Trethewey, master Plumber/Heating Expert for TOH gives excellent info on zone valves, copper & plastic tubing & installation in his video below; after you access the You-Tube site below, be sure to click onto the other excellent video topics that are also at the YouTube site.

    The "do-it-yourself" site has a diagram of a 3-zone baseboard hot water boiler heating system with a single pump (Grundfos) and 3 zone valves which may be applicable to YOUR system---the PRV is a pressure relief valve; the ball valves may be used if needed to equalize hw flow when more than 1 zone is calling for heat simultaneously.

    Google the following topics:

    Hot water baseboard piping diagram images
    Piping baseboard for an addition.
    Adding another baseboard hydronic zone for an addition.
    Residential Heat Loss Calculator.
    Adding baseboard to hot water system.
    How to create zones in a hot-water heating system (TOH).

    http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/vide...045338,00.html
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-THmW0Od20
    http://www.inspectapedia.com/heat/Ty...ng_Systems.php
    http://www.inspectapedia.com/heat/Baseboard_Heat.php
    http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...il-boiler.html
    Last edited by Pelton; 11-01-2015 at 06:25 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Help needed amount of baseboard and circulator pump size??????

    Pelton, thanks for the reply. Reviewed the sites you listed. Work does not concern me as I have sweated pipes in the past. My only concerns are sizing the circulator pumps and baseboard footage and setting up properly. Several sources state 67 feet is max run on baseboard per loop on 3/4 pipe, with a maximum flow rate at 4 gpm. Based upon gpm flow, same site is recommending Taco 007 or B & G Nrf 22/33 or series 100 pumps. Local plumber recommending 007 - all he runs- some McMansions in the area. Other plumbing supply recommending bigger, more expensive pumps.

    It seems that the total legnth of the loop at 426 feet is not a factor, or only concern for? If gpm is limited to 4 based upon 3/4 pipe, and addition is 2nd story, why can't I use a taco 007 or similar pump? The 007 is already servicing the 2nd floor and total of 3 zones presently.

    I know you state I can use a zone valve, but I am not fond of them. In fact, I hate them. I will be installing 3 circ.s for present zones. Just need to add flow control valves on return side or pumps with internal flow check valves, correct? Each zone already has own thermostat.

    This new zone will have own thermostat as well. Is 67 feet of baseboard sufficient for the room. 900 sq feet including 91 sq feet of windows. Located downstate NY in Westchester - 30 minutes from the city - NOT Buffalo. If so, can PEX 1" pipe handle 180 degree water from boiler? Does it have to have oxygen barrier? Red/Orange/clear? If it can handle the 180 degree water from boiler, than will run PEX from pump in cellar to 2nd floor radiators and on the return as well, in one loop, or can tee on feed and split in center of room for return, like Bill suggests. More work, but I want it done right.

    From some sights on internet, it seems I can tee the supply to the radiators on the two outside side walls, and then join the radiators in the center of the 3rd wall with a tee for a common return. Not sure if having water flow from each side converging in the center of the room for a return will cause problems? Any issues with that install? Am I clear in describing the install?

    Have available to me a B & G 2" BNFI pump. I assume that is sufficient if not overkill for the zone? Will be using Taco 007's or similar on the three zones I switch over from zone valves. One 007 presently servicing the three zones, so I figure one pump per zone is more than adequate.

    Thanks for your time and advice.

    Best,
    Gregg

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    173

    Default Re: Help needed amount of baseboard and circulator pump size??????

    Greg,

    Glad to hear you are located in the warmer parts of NYS in Westchester.

    I can deduce from your posts that you have a good handle on what you are trying to do on this project, and I'm sure you'll succeed---depending on how much time & funds you have & whether you have helper(s) to do this project before the snow flies, I personally feel that it would be more expedient to go with zone valves over pumps---less money spent, less installation time--but I understand the POV of those that favor pumps over ZVs.

    You hurt me to the quick when you say you hate ZVs---I've had very good luck with the Taco 570 series ZVs---in the several decades I've been using them I've had only 1 or 2 failures (only the power head, which is easily replaceable), which required only a replacement of the power head (twist on/twist off)---and in the meantime even if you DO have a rare failure, you can use the "manual mode" on the ZV lever to leave the zone open so you have heat until you buy the replacement power heat for approx $15-$20--no need to drain the system & replace the pump, simply twist off & twist on the new one! Taco has a long reputation of producing quality products, I just can't comment on the quality of the other ZVs out there.


    My previous post took the GPM baseboard flow rate from the wrong column--it should have been (according to my Heatrim American charts) 4 GPM flow rate @ approx 180 degrees water temp to produce 590 BTU/lin ft. of baseboard---590 BTU X 67' of baseboard= 39,530 btu/hr heat output, which should easily cover your estimated 35,500 btu/hr heat loss.

    My charts indicate a flow rate of 3.2 gpm to 6.5 gpm based on 2 feet/sec and 4 feet/sec flow rates for 3/4" copper tubing--Taco 007 circ=20 gal per minute flow rate.

    Yes, if you use pumps instead of ZVs you would have to add internal flow check valves.

    Yes PEX 1" can handle 180 degree HW--this PEX is usually rated at 200 degrees; since residential HW heating operates at 30psi, it is way below the 80 psi max allowed (low psi means less problems with PEX integrity; go to several heating parts wholesalers in your area to get a price & for the correct type of PEX--most of them sell to everyone; also price the copper tubing, if it's your preference--if you already have numerous copper fittings, cutting tools, etc. copper may be the way to go.

    I see no problem in using the Taco 007 pump, they have been very reliable for me over the years.

    Yes tee on feed/split on center to return is good; or one circular supply/return---dealer's choice.

    The many hydronic technicians at the Doityourself site (see previous post) can probably better advise you of the ins & outs of using Pumps & PEX--give them a shove.
    Last edited by Pelton; 11-03-2015 at 02:10 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Help needed amount of baseboard and circulator pump size??????

    Pelton, thanks for the additional info. Only familiar with old Honeywell zone valves, which I currently have. Overrides not working presently. I just looked into the Taco 570-571's and it looks like they will cost more money than individual pumps. Saw them ****** for $102-106 each with replacement heads at $69! At that price, would rather have individual pumps which would have less run time on them individually per zone, than one main pump re all zones with zone valves.

    I have been giving more thought to separating the zone with the tee as originally suggested by Bill, with a common 1" return in the center of the room. Thinking about this setup, I wonder if I can go beyond the 67' loop of baseboard maximum? Can I do 67' per each side of the tee, since each side will be getting 180 degree water? Join the baseboards via a tee at the end of each 67' run with a 1" common return. Probably overkill for the room, but if I have to sweat the pipe with dummy baseboard for aesthetics, I might as well sweat a full radiator in. Thanks. Best, Gregg

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