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  1. #1
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    May 2011
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    Default How to paint now? (House paint+repair history given)

    I'm hearing the same thing from my prospective painter that I've heard from everyone in person (verbally, non-forum):
    Always use oil primer and Latex exterior.
    So here's what's on the house now, from 14 years ago when house was built by a cruuuuuuuuumy contractor. The number on left is the years ago:

    • 14: pre-primed (cedar) clapboard (is that oil usually?) with rough side out.
    • 14: ...then 2 coats of Olympic latex (I think) slightly the wrong color yellow---their mistake
    • 14: ...then 1 coat of Benjamin Moore latex (correct yellow)
    • 10: Trim only painted 1 coat BM latex
    • 9: House body painted 1 coat BM latex
    • 1: House underwent massive siding + sheeting + some stud + some band joist + all new new-construction windows. 40% of house is now new pre-primed clapboard over Zip system sheeting. 25% of corner boards are replaced with Azek PVC. The windows are all vinyl with Azek casing.

    The contractor blamed the massive rot on a complete lack of caulking anywhere, not on how infrequently (understatement) we painted---however a good painter would have caulked everything....ours didn't. I don't know if the multiple layers of paint contributed to a dual vapor barrier locking in the moisture or not. Also there was a cricket missing on the roof causing an entire ground to be soaked routinely. Oye.

    OK. AT THIS POINT, do you suggest that I pay through the nose to have everything stripped to bare cedar and starting over?

    And with *what*? Acrylic primer and paint? Or Stain? of what? We love the yellow color of BM 318, if that matters.


    THANKS SO MUCH. This is *beyond* confusing for a layman.

    Here is the photobucket album of 3 pictures of house + garage.

    ***I have pictures, but I don't have the 10 posts required to TOH to allow them to show up here ***
    Last edited by tgm1024; 05-17-2011 at 12:31 PM. Reason: trying to fix quoting gap....not working.

  2. #2
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    Portland, Oregon, formerly of Chicago
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    Default Re: How to paint now? (House paint+repair history given)

    TGM,

    Traditionally, oil primers have been used on cedar because it keeps the water soluble tannens in cedar from bleeding through to the surface. The rear is also primed because if moisture should form on the back side, water streaks might leak out through the laps to the front of the siding, making yellowish/reddish streaks.

    Presently, there are water based acrylic primers which will suppress the tannen, provided 24 hours of cure time is allowed before applying the top coat. KILZ Premium is one such primer.

    Acrylic primers breath better than oil products. However, water based primers do raise the grain of the wood more. In any event, your siding is pre-primed, so the question is somewhat mute.

    I personally don't think lack of caulking alone would cause massive failure if the rain screen and flashings underneath were properly installed. For instance, a corner board would normally have a continuous sheet of TYVEK, felt paper or some other type of rain screen underneath. Even without caulk, water should not have been able to do extensive damage. Similarly, if the windows were set and properly wrapped, flowing water at best would have only run down the back side of the siding over the rain screen. Yet you state that sheathing and studs had to be replaced!

    I would agree that any qualified painter would have caulked at the time of subsequent paint jobs, even if the original "painter" had not.

    I don't think the amount of acrylic paint on the exterior in itself was the cause of your problems, however, any house which is letting massive amounts of moisture reach the back of the siding is going to experience paint failure and eventually rot. Had that been oil paint on your siding, the damage would have been even worse!

    I don't know the condition of your remaining old siding, but stripping is messy and expensive, especially of rough cedar. You might consider biting the bullet and replacing the rest of your siding.

    With rough cedar siding, I would consider using a solid hide acrylic stain as the top coat. Stain does not have as much build-up as a full bodied paint which tends to hide the texture of the wood.

    I often used solid hide oil stain as a primer on badly dried out cedar siding or new cedar siding. After several days of drying time (oil stains often use linseed oil),I would follow up with a top coat of the matching acrylic stain. Again, acrylic products do not oxidize and begin to look blotchy, as do oil stains. Stains have less build-up and therefore let the house breath better than full bodied house paint.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: How to paint now? (House paint+repair history given)

    Quote Originally Posted by ordjen View Post
    TGM,

    Traditionally, oil primers have been used on cedar because it keeps the water soluble tannens in cedar from bleeding through to the surface. The rear is also primed because if moisture should form on the back side, water streaks might leak out through the laps to the front of the siding, making yellowish/reddish streaks.

    Presently, there are water based acrylic primers which will suppress the tannen, provided 24 hours of cure time is allowed before applying the top coat. KILZ Premium is one such primer.

    Acrylic primers breath better than oil products. However, water based primers do raise the grain of the wood more. In any event, your siding is pre-primed, so the question is somewhat mute.
    Not quite, because my painter is advocating priming over everything (existing primer and paint alike), and whatever paint is peeling will be scr-aped away anyway, presumably to bare wood, so I'll need to know what to put on.

    Is it better to layer on an acrylic primer to have the better breathability even though run the risk of the cedar bleed?
    I personally don't think lack of caulking alone would cause massive failure if the rain screen and flashings underneath were properly installed. For instance, a corner board would normally have a continuous sheet of TYVEK, felt paper or some other type of rain screen underneath. Even without caulk, water should not have been able to do extensive damage. Similarly, if the windows were set and properly wrapped, flowing water at best would have only run down the back side of the siding over the rain screen. Yet you state that sheathing and studs had to be replaced!
    Thanks for scaring the bejeebers outta me.
    I often used solid hide oil stain as a primer on badly dried out cedar siding or new cedar siding. After several days of drying time (oil stains often use linseed oil),I would follow up with a top coat of the matching acrylic stain. Again, acrylic products do not oxidize and begin to look blotchy, as do oil stains. Stains have less build-up and therefore let the house breath better than full bodied house paint.
    Ok. So a single coat of oil primer and 2 coats of acrylic paint over everything:

    • pre-primed clapboard
    • scr aped down clapboard
    • existing paint
    • Azek (pvc) cornerboards <----note: I have to do this because some of the cornerboards are still the original, as they were not rotted out.

    Right? *dazed and confused*
    Last edited by tgm1024; 05-17-2011 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Overzealous filter took "r a p e" out of "s c r a p e d". Oye.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: How to paint now? (House paint+repair history given)

    My preferences are for oil primer where raw cedar is exposed.

    I think a general priming of the house, even though it is pre-primed, is not a bad idea. The primer that comes on pre-primed wood is somewhat marginal in quality. Do tint the primer toward the finish color.

    Personally, I think a single finish coat of premium 100% acrylic paint is adequate over a good, colored prime coat that is done over pre-primed wood. I am more concerned with the breathability of the house and the lack of needless paint build-up over the years, especially on textured siding.

    Tannen bleed should not be of concern over the pre-primed wood if it is not showing through that primer. An additional general coat of primer would even more prevent tannen bleed, especially if 24 hours is allowed between the primer and finish coat.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: How to paint now? (House paint+repair history given)

    Thanks for all the thought involved in these replies!!!!

    There was always cedar bleed on our house. Even after painted I believe the bleed came from under the top clapboard, leaking over the one beneath. (Guessing).


    I spoke to the house-repair contractor just an hour ago. Quick info: This guy has been in the repair and construction business for over 20 years (shrug?), and is not one of those bottom bid construction only types that don't see the damage of early mistakes.


    He said that the rot was definitely direct leak related for two reasons.


    1. The sheeting rot was clearly from the outside of the OSB inward.

    2. With vapor you see more mold than he saw (over direct rot).

    Dunno. I trust his approach, but I remain a layman.

    IN ANY CASE: I'm assuming that with yellow I'll need two top coats even with tinted primer, right?

    What brands do you suggest? Is that allowed in this forum?

  6. #6
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    Sep 2008
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    Fargo, ND
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    Default Re: How to paint now? (House paint+repair history given)

    To be clearer here....

    * Was all of your siding/framing failure/rotting on the side where no cricket was installed??
    * The entire home now has a good vapor-barrier??
    * You state the the original siding was pre-primed. Was the BACK-SIDE pre-primed at all??
    * Like others state here....I don't put much faith in "pre-primed" stuff. It can't hold a candle to ON-SITE priming and back-priming.
    * Oil priming on this siding....

    DEFINITELY. ENTIRE surface.
    * Ideally, it'd be newly back-primed, but I'm assuming this isn't possible now?!
    * Tinting the primer towards you final yellow wouldn't hurt. It WON'T save you a topcoat though!!!!!!

    >>> DO NOT CAULK ANY of that siding, other than any butt-joints & corner/end points!!
    * If someone caulks the bottom of each clapboard, moisture now has no way out, and will slowly "blow off" the new paint, because it's only way out now is ......
    * THROUGH THE siding.
    * This is the CRUCIAL idea behind backpriming boards! Keeping moisture from getting in the boards' backside in the first place!
    * Do many builders//painters do this?....NO.
    * Should they?....H-e-l-l yes!

    Faron

  7. #7
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    Default Re: How to paint now? (House paint+repair history given)

    Quote Originally Posted by Faron View Post
    To be clearer here....

    * Was all of your siding/framing failure/rotting on the side where no cricket was installed??
    No. The cricket was missing to the right of the chimney. That was a disaster. To the left of the chimney was a disaster too though. But less rot through. Also, this was on the north side. There were disasterous parts on the *south* side as well, but not quite as bad. Lots of leaking around the windows too. But also, the north side here really does *not* get sun. The north flat of the (wood) chimney had rotted down and needed that band joist replaced. Band joists in a few places rotted----even on the south-west corner.
    The entire home now has a good vapor-barrier??
    Only the parts of the siding that were feeling damaged were replaced, and then when the OSB was replaced it was replaced with Zip-board.

    There was nothing wrong with the vapor-barrier except for the detached garage which is outright missing a large chunk of Tyvek around one of the windows. Don't be distracted by the garage. There was damage there too, and that vapor barrier was replaced where it was discovered.
    You state the the original siding was pre-primed. Was the BACK-SIDE pre-primed at all??
    Yes, both sides. And it was installed rough-out BTW.
    Ideally, it'd be newly back-primed, but I'm assuming this isn't possible now
    No, it's on the house.
    Tinting the primer towards you final yellow wouldn't hurt. It WON'T save you a topcoat though!!!!!!
    Just for problematic colors like yellow, or in general? I thought someone suggested or implied a single top stain top coat as the best overall(?)
    >>> DO NOT CAULK ANY of that siding, other than any butt-joints & corner/end points!!
    * If someone caulks the bottom of each clapboard(...more...)
    No worries about something like that here. I've never seen anyone advocate the caulking underneath of a clapboard (yikes!), nor any place underneath where moisture might need to exit (like under the shadow over the rake-board). Water exit was foremost on my contractors mind and we went through extensive discussions of the mistakes he's seen in this regard.

    Thanks for the prime-over-everything suggestion. The more people here that suggest that, the less I get worried about build-up mitigating breathing.
    Last edited by tgm1024; 05-21-2011 at 08:04 AM. Reason: typo

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