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  1. #11
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    Aug 2008
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    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Quote Originally Posted by JLMCDANIEL View Post
    Does that mean I can't plug the 14 awg extension cord for the hedge clippers into the 20 amp outside outlet I have, or that I should unplug all the table lamps with 18 awg cords that are pluged into outlets on a 20amp circuit?
    Jack
    ?????????? Where do you come up with that???? and what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

    350 ft. of 14/2 and 150 ft. of 14/2 That's what the original post says. 20 amps.

    14 awg doesn't belong on a 20 amp circuit, certainly not 350 feet of it to a 800 watt load and another 150 feet of it to 300 watts in the circuit!

    I doubt that 18 awg lamp cord is for 800 watts of lighting or is more than 6 feet long.

    Extension cords aren't legs.

    Since when do we assume 14-2 is extension cord?

    Since when do we consider an extension cord, portable lamp, or a portable appliance or tool part of a circuit or the premisis wiring system?

    A GFCI is not a replacement for a bonded equipment grounding conductor. Outdoors and pool areas especially. Metal cases, non-isolated motors, basically anything with a 3-prong cord cap requires the presence of an ECG, isolated from neutral and bonded back to the panel.
    SPAM: never liked it from a can, can't stand it on a board forum. This board needs MODERATORS!

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Fayette County, Ohio
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    5,843

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Just checking for clarification. The OP said plugged in and you say that it is a leap in logic that it is not part of the premises wiring and yet you leap to the assumption that the OP using the term leg automatically makes it part of the premise's wiring.

    I also suggested in my first post that there were other problems and said " DO NOT "hot wire" , find the cause."

    Neither one of us knows the situation completely. We don't know if this is permanet lighting or temporary party lighting. I choose to answer the OP's question rather than elaborate on that which I can't see or know. I didn't disagree with the additional information you supplied just pointed out that with the information the OP did supply, that it is plugged in, your assertion that it needed to be on a 15 amp circuit is incorrect. Being plugged in would negate it being premises wiring. Your figuring it to be a dead-front GFCI has no bearing at this point because a receptacle would have to be involve to "plug" them in. The OP could be using bare 14 awg attached to insulators, SO cord, romex, or UF none of which in themselves would cause a GFCI to trip.

    Oh and since when does lack or presence of ECG have anything to do with a GFCI tripping?
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  3. #13
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    Aug 2008
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    109

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Quote Originally Posted by schlo View Post
    Hello,I have two separate loads,feeding (temporaliy),from one gfci feed.20a..there is 250ft of 14/2,,and a few outdoor lights. 800w of lights.The second load is 150ft,14/2 and 300w of lights. When I plug both in,I trip the gfci,not the breaker,,I have a CLAMP METER,can I go on a hot wire for each individual load,when on,and try to determine the amp draw??thanks,each of these loads work OK by themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by schlo View Post
    U are right,I will find the cause or run new leg.My 2nd question,for a little education, is with the clamp meter..can I go on one leg(hot),at any point on the wiring and test the amp draw??when the load is lighting?thanks
    To schlo:

    14/2 should be protected by 15 amp max, for long distances you should be increasing your wire size you have tremendous voltage drop at those distances. It is inappropriate and unsafe for you to have 14 awg cable on your 20 amp OCPD protected circuit. Even with a 15 amp OCPD, the lengths of the circuit extensions you describe make this a very dangerous condition you are creating. The high resistance overheating can cause faults, arcing, etc. throughout this complicated and very long circuit you have described while you work those 1100 watts of 120v lighting. Each addition of a switch, timer, other devices increase resistance and may also be working more electricity - therefore more overheating.

    Sensors on these outdoor lights (motion/light levels) timers? Power supplies/transformers?

    Newer GFCI's have lock-out protection.

    Suspect a wiring error or fault. Water infiltration, condensation, continuity, poor bond to ground all possibilities.

    Voltage drop issues are probable. Even at 9 amp continuous load at those distances huge resistance, even if you didn't have a single splice.

    I suspect this is a continued effort on this other discussion about tripping GFCI, pool and yard lighting:

    http://advice.thisoldhouse.com/showthread.php?t=11178

    14 awg doesn't belong on a 20 amp OCPD circuit, period you need no more than a 15 amp OCPD 120v. At those distances your way beyond a 3 percent drop, almost 26% at 350 feet of UF barely 88 volts at the end. At 350 feet in one direction you'd need much thicker wire at 15 amps OCPD. Lighting is a continuous load. You design to no more than 3 percent voltage drop.

    If this is the same project Schlo posted about before, needs qualified on-site help.

    You must have EGC near pool.

    Bonding pool area essential.

    A Pro can check service bond and check for stray voltage from drop, pole and transformer locations.

    Read the other post string. Doubt this is a new situation.

    For those kinds of distances you have huge voltage drop. It is not safe nor ecomonical to be running 120v circuits out in the yard by the pool at those distances. You need to run a four-wire 240v gfci protected circuit to a remote panel then run your two shorter 120v circuits. You need EGC for those circuits. Your pool area must be properly bonded.

    Jack, thanks for the laughs you are a real arm puller and twister. Not going to waste my time explaining to someone with your limitations why an ECG isolated and bonded to the panel is so important in this application, with or without GFCI device in place. Any more time wasted on your responses would be futile and foolish, you aren't worth it.

    If Schlo returns or PMs with another question I'll answer, if I notice it.
    Last edited by Gray Watson; 03-07-2009 at 07:50 PM.
    SPAM: never liked it from a can, can't stand it on a board forum. This board needs MODERATORS!

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Fayette County, Ohio
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    5,843

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Watson View Post
    To schlo:

    14/2 should be protected by 15 amp max, for long distances you should be increasing your wire size you have tremendous voltage drop at those distances. It is inappropriate and unsafe for you to have 14 awg cable on your 20 amp OCPD protected circuit. Even with a 15 amp OCPD, the lengths of the circuit extensions you describe make this a very dangerous condition you are creating. The high resistance overheating can cause faults, arcing, etc. throughout this complicated and very long circuit you have described while you work those 1100 watts of 120v lighting. Each addition of a switch, timer, other devices increase resistance and may also be working more electricity - therefore more overheating.

    Sensors on these outdoor lights (motion/light levels) timers? Power supplies/transformers?

    Newer GFCI's have lock-out protection.

    Suspect a wiring error or fault. Water infiltration, condensation, continuity, poor bond to ground all possibilities.

    Voltage drop issues are probable. Even at 9 amp continuous load at those distances huge resistance, even if you didn't have a single splice.

    I suspect this is a continued effort on this other discussion about tripping GFCI, pool and yard lighting:

    http://advice.thisoldhouse.com/showthread.php?t=11178

    14 awg doesn't belong on a 20 amp OCPD circuit, period you need no more than a 15 amp OCPD 120v. At those distances your way beyond a 3 percent drop, almost 26% at 350 feet of UF barely 88 volts at the end. At 350 feet in one direction you'd need much thicker wire at 15 amps OCPD. Lighting is a continuous load. You design to no more than 3 percent voltage drop.

    If this is the same project Schlo posted about before, needs qualified on-site help.

    You must have EGC near pool.

    Bonding pool area essential.

    A Pro can check service bond and check for stray voltage from drop, pole and transformer locations.

    Read the other post string. Doubt this is a new situation.

    For those kinds of distances you have huge voltage drop. It is not safe nor ecomonical to be running 120v circuits out in the yard by the pool at those distances. You need to run a four-wire 240v gfci protected circuit to a remote panel then run your two shorter 120v circuits. You need EGC for those circuits. Your pool area must be properly bonded.

    Jack, thanks for the laughs you are a real arm puller and twister. Not going to waste my time explaining to someone with your limitations why an ECG isolated and bonded to the panel is so important in this application, with or without GFCI device in place. Any more time wasted on your responses would be futile and foolish, you aren't worth it.

    If Schlo returns or PMs with another question I'll answer, if I notice it.
    Ah, Gray you're a real toot. Always smoke and mirrors to misdirect and then followed by a personal insult.
    And I would really like to know how you come up with a 26% voltage drop on the 350 feet run. Enlighten me, I'm always relish the chance for new knowledge. But then again that has nothing to do with the question asked.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The deep South
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    459

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Jack , you do know who it is , right ?

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    jupiter,florida
    Posts
    20

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    hello,thanks for all the discussion.Let me clarify,the gfci is 20a rated.I could easily change this to a 15a.The main breaker is 15a.Jack,this is a continuance of the tripping gfci.I have re-run the buried -rated grey-romex.The pool area is gfci outlet,as well as the yard will be.And as previously discussed,will be controlled by 2 switches..I don't see a difference why 350ft of 14/2 would be any different then if I ran 350 or more inside my house? I understand that there is a resistance usage-allowance for the wire. There are only lights on these circuits,all are cfl, low wattage bulbs.I live in South Florida,,thanks for all the info,,u guys,make up and send kisses!

  7. #17
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    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fayette County, Ohio
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    5,843

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Gray is correct 350 feet is to long a run. You will have a voltage drop that will take it below code allowable levels. As I figure it it could be about 11% or 14 volts. This is below allowable levels by code and could be slightly below operating level for some devices. With incandescent lights it would only cause them to be a little dimmer but you would still be within the code current draw for 14/2. As a general rule any time you go above 100 feet you should go to the next size wire. This is not always followed. There is also a code requirement to go to the next size when running through attics in such hot areas as Florida. That doesn't mean it is always done. The voltage drop may be what is causing you problem though because you are using CFL bulbs. Going to 12 AWG may solve your problems but I suspect the capacitive load is to high for the GFCI. You might try installing 2 GFCIs on for each run.
    Jack
    Last edited by JLMCDANIEL; 03-08-2009 at 08:44 PM.
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    693

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    People! People! You take it all way to serious! Have some fun! And dance.

    http://search.msn.com/video/results....288&FORM=VARE2

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    109

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    voltage drop cals I made were correct with 9 amp load on UF 350 ft outdoors ambient and soil temps for summer. Attic temps have nothing to do with this. Don't know why Jack carries on so.

    In your other string Schlo you said you wanted to take this circuit above the ground.

    You've not confirmed you have ground or if this is old cable (2-wire).

    Every splice or connection is adding to resistance of your circuit.

    Jack is low off my numbers correct at a minimum drop 350 feet.

    CFLs are not pure resisitive loads like an incandescent.

    12 awg not sufficient. Major voltage drop at 120v.

    Design guidelines are 3 percent.

    Pool area nothing to mess with by unqualified individuals.

    Your taps should be above ground more than 4 feet away from water and at above water line in waterproof boxes.

    Knew this was a continued saga from the other post string, thanks for confirming Schlo. If you're tapping off another 150 feet after 350 ft out you're at 500 ft. You couldn't cover that with #10.

    Curious you said before your circuit was 20 amp. A 20 amp face duplex receptacle doesn't belong on a 15 amp OCPD protected circuit. The exception is only for a single receptacle (that accomodates just one plug) on the entire circuit.
    Last edited by Gray Watson; 03-08-2009 at 11:11 PM.
    SPAM: never liked it from a can, can't stand it on a board forum. This board needs MODERATORS!

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Quitman , Ms
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    16

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Quote Originally Posted by NEC View Post
    People! People! You take it all way to serious! Have some fun! And dance.

    http://search.msn.com/video/results....288&FORM=VARE2
    To Leslie , ( aka Fencepost , Gray Watson , etc ) this IS fun !

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