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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    jupiter,florida
    Posts
    20

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Thank u for all the info.OK,I misread or did not clarify the info in my orig.post about tripping gfci.The old condition that existed was very bad.I tried to do this at a reasonable cost.I realize that 12 should have been run.I'm stuck now,induldge me, as posted,my original plan was to break the circuit,using two gfci's,and then use the two different runs on the load sides,hard wired.I'm using plug ends now,(industrial 3 prong plugs on the end of the romex), only as a temp condition,pluging into the existing one gfci that's there.testing my work as I move along.As was posted,one main feed,for 2 gfci's controlled by 2 switches. if I limit the load wattage,that's on the 2 different runs,still using the 14,will that help??I have the longer run working now.all the connections are now above ground in waterproof boxes.and are more than 4 ft from water.thanks
    Last edited by schlo; 03-09-2009 at 09:20 AM. Reason: add on

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    109

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Quote Originally Posted by schlo View Post
    Thank u for all the info.OK,I misread or did not clarify the info in my orig.post about tripping gfci.The old condition that existed was very bad.I tried to do this at a reasonable cost.I realize that 12 should have been run.I'm stuck now,induldge me, as posted,my original plan was to break the circuit,using two gfci's,and then use the two different runs on the load sides,hard wired.I'm using plug ends now,(industrial 3 prong plugs on the end of the romex), only as a temp condition,pluging into the existing one gfci that's there.testing my work as I move along.As was posted,one main feed,for 2 gfci's controlled by 2 switches. if I limit the load wattage,that's on the 2 different runs,still using the 14,will that help??I have the longer run working now.all the connections are now above ground in waterproof boxes.and are more than 4 ft from water.thanks
    No. You need at least 10 awg for the distance possibly bigger with circuit that long. Heavier guage wire is not going to compensate for the tremendous voltage drop you will encounter with an outdoor 120v circuit that long.

    Your "industrial plugs" on two ends making cheater cables and piggy backing receptacles is no good. That is no way to wire a circuit path. It is a dangerous thing to do.

    You need water proof connections and need to learn how to properly wire a circuit.

    You shouldn't be reusing old cable that was already having problems and was over-amped and over heated already, even if you checked continuity, you had a previous fault problem and the cable was already overheating before you started this project.

    For a distance that long you NEED to wire a four-wire 240 v feeder to a panel then run shorter 120v circuit paths.

    You need a equipotential bonding grid around pools.

    Household CFLs around pools not wise.

    High water tables (tidal) near ocean numerous possible conflicting issues and conditions in Jupiter, Florida, your described efforts causing even more dangerous. Completely disconnect your objectional current and fault producing project and get a pro, your risking life not just property of your daughter and anyone else.
    Last edited by Gray Watson; 03-09-2009 at 11:12 AM.
    SPAM: never liked it from a can, can't stand it on a board forum. This board needs MODERATORS!

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fayette County, Ohio
    Posts
    5,796

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Schlo I still believe Gray's calculations are off. It would be easy enough to check. Check the voltage at the end of the 250 ft. run. I believe you will find it to be about 110 volts not 88 volts as Gray asserted. Is this still outside the NEC 3% design limit, yes. Will it work, yes. Is it up to code, no. Is 110 volts within the manufacturers operating range of the CFLs, yes. Is the current draw excessive, no. It would be about 6 amps on the 250 ft. run and less than 3 amps on the 150 ft. run. At this amperage there should be no "over-amped and over heated already" cable because you said the 15 amp breaker never tripped.

    A GFCI is designed to check for a difference in current flow in the two power legs, it neither requires or senses ground so the presence or absence of ground will not cause it to trip. Is a ground a required and absolutely necessary safety feature, yes but was not part of your question. Would the additional resistance of the long run cause the GFCI to trip, no. Will over current cause the GFCI to trip, no. Ground leakage along the line or excessive capacitance will cause a GFCI to trip. You had said you have a 20 amp GFCI, I would speculate that you have a 15 amp ***** with a 20 amp pass through which can be used in a 15 amp protected circuit.

    Will what you have proposed work, most likely. Is it up to code, no. Would I have recommended you do it that way, no.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    109

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Quote Originally Posted by JLMCDANIEL View Post
    Schlo I still believe Gray's calculations are off. It would be easy enough to check. Check the voltage at the end of the 250 ft. run. I believe you will find it to be about 110 volts not 88 volts as Gray asserted. Is this still outside the NEC 3% design limit, yes. Will it work, yes. Is it up to code, no. Is 110 volts within the manufacturers operating range of the CFLs, yes. Is the current draw excessive, no. It would be about 6 amps on the 250 ft. run and less than 3 amps on the 150 ft. run. At this amperage there should be no "over-amped and over heated already" cable because you said the 15 amp breaker never tripped.

    A GFCI is designed to check for a difference in current flow in the two power legs, it neither requires or senses ground so the presence or absence of ground will not cause it to trip. Is a ground a required and absolutely necessary safety feature, yes but was not part of your question. Would the additional resistance of the long run cause the GFCI to trip, no. Will over current cause the GFCI to trip, no. Ground leakage along the line or excessive capacitance will cause a GFCI to trip. You had said you have a 20 amp GFCI, I would speculate that you have a 15 amp ***** with a 20 amp pass through which can be used in a 15 amp protected circuit.

    Will what you have proposed work, most likely. Is it up to code, no. Would I have recommended you do it that way, no.
    Jack
    Things that make you go "hmmmm".

    My calculations are correct for the minimal paramaters I stated.

    Including a 9 amp load. That was based on a continuous load (lighting) resistive in nature.

    Objectional current. Pool area proper bonding and essential proper sizing of conductors including the neutral and the ECG.

    CFLs are not purely resistive loads. Voltage drop issues worse.

    Handyman or DIY special = injury to persons or property possible death.

    This area requires an insulated ECG. People are guessing you *might* have UF cable but you've always said you had a gray sheathed romex - NM was sold with gray colored sheath, white, and shades of beige, all which have faded to shades of gray.

    ACTUAL UF is a bear to strip properly.

    If you don't have an insulated ECG you don't have the right cable, period. Properly bonded ground is essential for any receptacle within 20 feet of the water's edge - that is what provides the ESSENTIAL protection. GFCI is added safety upon that essential protection and is also required for all 120v in this area - but, NOT WITHOUT proper bonding and isolated ECG. If you don't know anything about equipotential grids, bonding, grounding then you shouldn't be messing with this Chapt 6 area.

    You started with an unknown and unsafe condition. You never determined or corrected the original unsafe conditions before you sought to change the design.

    It is obvious you haven't a clue about what a MWBC is or how to determine if you have one or have encountered or created a wiring error.

    Keep it simple. http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/5039.pdf

    Schlo, Stop before you hurt someone or something. Disable and contact a pro.
    SPAM: never liked it from a can, can't stand it on a board forum. This board needs MODERATORS!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    jupiter,florida
    Posts
    20

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Jack,(thanks),the short run,all bulps,#10(cfl 14w)are in 7' lamp-post,all grounded,2 volt drop at end, 8/10(.8amp)draw.
    The longer section,#8(cfl 14w),#6(60w)to be changed out to cfl.all 7ft post,grounded,5volt drop at end,3.5amp draw..
    Gray,thanks for all the education,I only replaced,exactly what I found there.All connections were buried in boxes and wet(12awg was there,should have told me somthing)), except I screwed up with the awg.The wire used was UF,rated for buried underground.No trouble skinning it?I replaced the entire job putting the waterproof boxes above ground level.
    Great forum,thanks to all,,THE END

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fayette County, Ohio
    Posts
    5,796

    Default Re: load to much for gfci

    Glad you got everything worked out schlo without the world comming to an end.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

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