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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    731

    Default Re: aluminum wiring overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie_Fergler View Post
    I have never run into a situation where aluminum cable was the was the wire of choice. Lucky me..... Have heard about it though and the dangers it presents.
    Thanks to all for posts, as I have learned a lot.
    Those Alimiconn connectors are quite the product.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie_Fergler View Post
    Google is not perfect, we have to remember that...
    The depths of what you don't know or haven't run into don't surprise me. Nor your lack of understanding or knowledge of materials available and installed 1958ish - (most post 65 with the rise in copper prices) 1972 with interupted installs through and beyond 1975 (collateral estoppel rullings against the newly formed CPSC preventing their efforts). UL revamp on aluminum wire standards 1970 and for devices used with aluminum wiring 1972. Know anything about the National Commission on Product Safety? (1967)? Ever seen a home wired with an old LV lighting relay system, ever seen one that didn't have a repair? Ever traced and checked every bit of every circuit's wiring?

    Anaconda Co., Cadillac Cable Corp, Capital Wire & Cable Corp.; Cerro-Marmon Corp.; Coleman Cable & Wire Co., Inc.; Colonial Wire & Cable Co., Inc.; Columbia Cable and Electric Corp.; Essex Group, Inc.; Ettco Wire an Cable Corp.; General Cable Corp.; Kaiser Aluminum & Chemical Corp.; American Insulated Wire Corp.; Rhode Island Insulated Wire Co.; Renolds Metals Co.; Southwire Co.; Triangle PWC, Inc. All manufactured AL wire and cable. See if you can find 14/ 16/ and even 18/. Ever come across an electrified cabinet (medicine cabinet, etc.) With convenience receptacle(s)? Lighting? A late 60s/early 70s light fixture with a convience receptacle? Check that wiring or the wiring pulled through?

    Device manufacturers were Bryant Electric Col; Circle F. Indus., Inc.; Eagle Electric Manuf. Co., Inc.; General Electric Co.; Leviton Manuf. Co., Inc.; Pass & Seymour, Inc.; John I. Paulding, Inc.; Sierra Electric Co.; Slater Electric, Inc.; and Square D. Co.

    As sued by the United States of America.

    And you that you dispute anything when on another thread you declared modern extension cords were smaller than 16 awg and would cause a fire or worse if used and proclaimed wall receptacles had to be no more than six feet apart.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Pacific Northwet
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    1,565

    Default Re: aluminum wiring overhaul

    The following will not help the original poster in her quest to fix up the wiring in her house, but will hopefully help those following this thread understand some of the issues with aluminum wiring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue RidgeParkway View Post
    ...See if you can find 14/ 16/ and even 18/. Ever come across an electrified cabinet (medicine cabinet, etc.) With convenience receptacle(s)? Lighting? A late 60s/early 70s light fixture with a convience receptacle? Check that wiring or the wiring pulled through?...
    Wiring installed by fixture manufacturers is often smaller than that required for branch circuit wiring. Manufactured devices have maximum ratings stamped or printed on them which is often lower than the branch circuit amp rating. In the past, it was expected that this label rating would be observed and therefore the smaller wire size was considered OK.

    Newer fixtures that have convenience outlets typically have 14 or 12AWG wires running to the convenience outlet because experience has shown that people don't pay attention to the nameplate ratings. Table lamps still use 18AWG cords. A wall oven I bought a couple of years ago requires a "50A circuit" but has a 10 gauge copper wire pigtail (normally 30A max) installed by the manufacturer. And it's UL listed. Manufacturers get a different set of rules to play by than electricians do.

    Another thing to be aware of is that the stranded wires in fixtures are often tinned copper, meaning they have a tin coating to aid in soldering, and that gives them a silvery look that could be mistaken for aluminum.

    As I understand it, 14AWG aluminum wire has NEVER been permitted for residential branch circuit wiring (but a manufacturer may certainly have used it in the fixtures they produced). Aluminum is no longer permitted for 15A and 20A 120V branch circuits. But I haven't Googled that, so I can't be sure.
    The "Senior Member" designation under my name doesn't mean I know a lot, it just means I talk a lot.I've been a DIYer since I was 12 (thanks, Dad!). I have read several books on various home improvement topics. I do not have any current code books I can refer to. I was an apprentice plumber for two years.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fayette County, Ohio
    Posts
    5,773

    Default Re: aluminum wiring overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencepost View Post
    The following will not help the original poster in her quest to fix up the wiring in her house, but will hopefully help those following this thread understand some of the issues with aluminum wiring.



    Wiring installed by fixture manufacturers is often smaller than that required for branch circuit wiring. Manufactured devices have maximum ratings stamped or printed on them which is often lower than the branch circuit amp rating. In the past, it was expected that this label rating would be observed and therefore the smaller wire size was considered OK.

    Newer fixtures that have convenience outlets typically have 14 or 12AWG wires running to the convenience outlet because experience has shown that people don't pay attention to the nameplate ratings. Table lamps still use 18AWG cords. A wall oven I bought a couple of years ago requires a "50A circuit" but has a 10 gauge copper wire pigtail (normally 30A max) installed by the manufacturer. And it's UL listed. Manufacturers get a different set of rules to play by than electricians do.

    Another thing to be aware of is that the stranded wires in fixtures are often tinned copper, meaning they have a tin coating to aid in soldering, and that gives them a silvery look that could be mistaken for aluminum.

    As I understand it, 14AWG aluminum wire has NEVER been permitted for residential branch circuit wiring (but a manufacturer may certainly have used it in the fixtures they produced). Aluminum is no longer permitted for 15A and 20A 120V branch circuits. But I haven't Googled that, so I can't be sure.
    Interesting post but a little incorrect. NEC branch service wire requirements have a large safety margin (50% of the ampacity for the ga.) built in while fixture wiring goes by actual ampacity rating. If you open a typical 20 amp power strip you will not find 12 ga. wiring inside nor will you in a fixture with a convenience outlet. NEC requires 12 ga for a 20 amp branch service, the ampacity of 12 ga. copper wire which is what it can be used for in fixture wiring is 41 amps. The minimum size wire allowed for fixture wiring is 18 ga. (and is the most common size used) has an ampacity of 32 amps and makes it safe to use on all 20 amp branch circuits.

    As far as I know no fixtures were manufactured with aluminum wiring.

    Ampacity of 10 ga. wire is 55 amps that's why it was used on your stove.

    Aluminum wiring is permitted but it must be the new series AA-8000 aluminum.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  4. #24
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    Pacific Northwet
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    1,565

    Default Re: aluminum wiring overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by JLMCDANIEL View Post
    Interesting post but a little incorrect. NEC branch service wire requirements have a large safety margin (50% of the ampacity for the ga.) built in while fixture wiring goes by actual ampacity rating. If you open a typical 20 amp power strip you will not find 12 ga. wiring inside nor will you in a fixture with a convenience outlet. NEC requires 12 ga for a 20 amp branch service, the ampacity of 12 ga. copper wire which is what it can be used for in fixture wiring is 41 amps. The minimum size wire allowed for fixture wiring is 18 ga. (and is the most common size used) has an ampacity of 32 amps and makes it safe to use on all 20 amp branch circuits.

    As far as I know no fixtures were manufactured with aluminum wiring.

    Ampacity of 10 ga. wire is 55 amps that's why it was used on your stove.

    Aluminum wiring is permitted but it must be the new series AA-8000 aluminum.
    Jack
    Thanks, Jack. I was wondering how they got away with it. Always happy to learn something new.
    The "Senior Member" designation under my name doesn't mean I know a lot, it just means I talk a lot.I've been a DIYer since I was 12 (thanks, Dad!). I have read several books on various home improvement topics. I do not have any current code books I can refer to. I was an apprentice plumber for two years.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    1,131

    Default Re: aluminum wiring overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie_Fergler View Post
    Google is not perfect, we have to remember that...
    Am I gonna have to revoke your Google diploma?

    I should hope not.

    Here....just brush up a little and you too can assume the pretense of being the mighty Wizard of Oz.

    http://www.cwire.org/data-mining-using-google/

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: aluminum wiring overhaul

    what do you mean of that??!




    ___________________
    aluminum plate

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1

    Red face Re: aluminum wiring overhaul

    Thank you all for sharing your knowledge! Can you please share more?

    We have been researching Aluminum wiring - found a perfect house, only to learn it has Al wiring. We are not comfortable with that (we have 2 little ones). I'm sure this has been asked before in other threads, but can anyone give us a BALLPARK estimate to re-wire the house? (We realize there are other fixes, but we're looking into this one first).

    It's a 3000sf ranch, built in 1969, with a 2000sf finished (walk-out) basement (other part is garage). 4 Bedrooms and 4.5 baths, LR, DR, FR, Kitchen, Foyer, Laundry Room upstairs. 1 Bed, 1 Ba, Den, and storage rooms in basement. 200 Amp panel at one end of basement and sub panel at the other end (split furnace and water heaters too). We're assuming the task would include drywall removal/replacement/etc...?? Does it mean tearing up the kitchen?

    We are going to call around, but can't until Monday!

    Thanks so much in advance for any guidance!

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Shamokin, Pa.
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: aluminum wiring overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by ****hiller View Post
    Am I gonna have to revoke your Google diploma?

    I should hope not.

    Here....just brush up a little and you too can assume the pretense of being the mighty Wizard of Oz.

    http://www.cwire.org/data-mining-using-google/
    Thanks for the tip !!!!!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fayette County, Ohio
    Posts
    5,773

    Default Re: aluminum wiring overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by platypus View Post
    Thank you all for sharing your knowledge! Can you please share more?

    We have been researching Aluminum wiring - found a perfect house, only to learn it has Al wiring. We are not comfortable with that (we have 2 little ones). I'm sure this has been asked before in other threads, but can anyone give us a BALLPARK estimate to re-wire the house? (We realize there are other fixes, but we're looking into this one first).

    It's a 3000sf ranch, built in 1969, with a 2000sf finished (walk-out) basement (other part is garage). 4 Bedrooms and 4.5 baths, LR, DR, FR, Kitchen, Foyer, Laundry Room upstairs. 1 Bed, 1 Ba, Den, and storage rooms in basement. 200 Amp panel at one end of basement and sub panel at the other end (split furnace and water heaters too). We're assuming the task would include drywall removal/replacement/etc...?? Does it mean tearing up the kitchen?

    We are going to call around, but can't until Monday!

    Thanks so much in advance for any guidance!
    Generally all new wiring can be accomplished by cutting access holes in the drywall. These can easily be patched. Some rooms may not even require that. A complete gut or large tear up should be unnecessary. I guess large tear up is a relative term. Not knowing your area, your house, or labor rates in your area I would guess you would be looking at between 5 and 10 thousand dollars. But I have been out of the market for a while.
    Jack
    Be sure you live your life, because you are a long time dead.-Scottish Proverb

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: aluminum wiring overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by woodwoman View Post
    I'm not a gambler w/stuff like this. Is $3500 a reasonable estimate to do this? Is there an average per outlet/fixture so I can count these up and see what this will cost?
    If this is $3,500 for copalum crimps, I've read the average is about $75 per crimp. One problem with copalum crimps, if and when a section of aluminum wire needs to be replaced, you'll likely have to get an electrician to come out and re-crimp it. Not all electricians have the special tools. When I called Tyco and asked, they only had one electrician in Washington state with tool and training.

    I've seen estimates of $8K to completely rewire a house with copper. Personally, I'd rather have all aluminum gone and replaced with copper.

    I ran into some aluminum wire last night, and I'm eyeing the AlumiConn connectors. While no "special tools" are required, a torque screwdriver is required and they can run anywhere from probably $150 to $300. AlumiConn are supposed to be available at Lowes and they cost around $3 each. Much cheaper than copalums.

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