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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    731

    Default Re: Well Pump question

    Quote Originally Posted by bunker45 View Post
    Thanks for the help guys. The attached links helped much. Through testing and such, I am sure the bladder has a tear in it. I will be replacing the tank next week. Thanks for the help.
    chuck
    chuck,

    You're welcome, and am glad you found the linkS helpful.

    if you had water spurting out of the shrader valve at the top of a bladder tank that's a given. but the symptoms as first described could have been bad pressure switch or bad settings and a leaking check valve. also could have been from a pressure tank being over charged.

    One more thing though, your differential is 15...(cut on 35 cut off 50). Most pumps and tanks are set up for a 20 differential, and the only times I'm familiar with that differential being intentionally set lower than 18-20 is when you have a choke or pump control valve or a slow start speed pump, point being is that when you do intentionally have a 15 differential you usually have a reason for it (unless its a bad pressure switch or someone messed around with the wrong screw setting one screw adjusts the pressure up or down both cut-in and cut-out equally with the same differential, the other screw only adjusts the cut-off presure usually only +/- 5-10 psi) if this was done on purpose (15 differential for a pump flow control valve) then USUALLY you also are supposed to charge your bladder tank with LESS pressure - so the usual tank manufacturer recommendation of letting the air charge in the empty tank to be 2 psi lower than the cut-on pressure switch setting would actually be needed to be charged even lower like 5-7 lbs lower than the cut-on pressure so you'd need to keep that in mind if that is the case. if somebody did this to compensate for a bad checkvalve , now would be the time to replace the bad checkvalve too. dirty contacts in the switch can be cleaned. don't do any adjustments on the pressure switch or try to clean the contacts unless you've verified power is off and confirmed with a meter.

    having the tank charge too high will reduce the volume of water that can be in the tank and decrease the drawdown time.

    when the differential is less you also decrease the drawdown time.

    less drawdown means the pump will have to cycle even for less water volume use - it also means the cycle will be shorter so not able to keep running for continuous use.

    having the charge too high in the bladder tank will cause the bladder to fail sooner.

    even if your old set up didn't have one you should also have a pressure release valve installed. its something used to be skipped with residential systems with bladder tanks (and often overlooked by DIYers replacing old style tanks with bladder tanks) but shouldn't be. pressure switch contacts have been known to weld closed and tanks have exploded. the little diaphrams in the pressure switches can fail to.

    a new pressure switch cost about $20 (unless you've got the kind with a lever out the side if you do say so because these have to be reset a special way) a pressure release valve even less.

    a bladder replacement or a bladder tank replacement is an ideal time to replace a pressure switch if necessary to do so, and an ideal time to add a pressure release valve if the prior set up did not have one.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    731

    Default Re: Well Pump question

    Quote Originally Posted by ****hiller View Post
    time for somebody to study Hoyle's law and understand it more than they do presently
    don't you mean Boyle's law?
    Last edited by Blue RidgeParkway; 12-18-2008 at 08:48 PM.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    1,131

    Default Re: Well Pump question

    Quote Originally Posted by bunker45 View Post
    Thanks for the help guys. The attached links helped much. Through testing and such, I am sure the bladder has a tear in it. I will be replacing the tank next week. Thanks for the help.
    chuck
    For the sake of some understanding backed by real experience, you might want to try an experiment - When you install the new tank.....set the pre-charge on the air-head to 2 psi less than the kick-in pressure for the wellpump. This will give you the largest drawdown for your tank......while still giving you a small margin of error for variances in the response of the pressure switch.

    Determining that this is the best pre-charge pressure for max drawdown is easy. Set it for that 2 psi less than kick-in and see what you get for drawdown (gallons of discharge between pump cycles). Next....turn off the pump, drain the tank completely again and set the pre-charge for 4,6 or even 8 psi less than pump kick-in. (It's an experiment, so just pick one and go with it) Turn pump back on and allow the tank to refill. Check your drawdown again. You'll soon enough be draining the tank to return to the original recommended pre-charge.

    You'll always get the max drawdown by having the pre-charge on the air-head (bladder tank or single compartment galvy) as close as possible to the kick-in of the pressure switch, but it's best to allow a bit of margin for pressure-switch response variances as the switch parts wear over time. This is why the manufacturer's recommendations are for 2 psi less than kick-in pressure. And now you know firsthand because you have real experience to prove the physical laws of the situation.
    Last edited by goldhiller; 12-18-2008 at 10:53 PM.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    731

    Default Re: Well Pump question

    Quote Originally Posted by ****hiller View Post
    For the sake of some understanding backed by real experience, you might want to try an experiment - When you install the new tank.....set the pre-charge on the air-head to 2 psi less than the kick-in pressure for the wellpump. This will give you the largest drawdown for your tank......while still giving you a small margin of error for variances in the response of the pressure switch.

    Determining that this is the best pre-charge pressure for max drawdown is easy. Set it for that 2 psi less than kick-in and see what you get for drawdown (gallons of discharge between pump cycles). Next....turn off the pump, drain the tank completely again and set the pre-charge for 4,6 or even 8 psi less than pump kick-in. (It's an experiment, so just pick one and go with it) Turn pump back on and allow the tank to refill. Check your drawdown again. You'll soon enough be draining the tank to charge the tank back to a 2 psi pre-charge.

    You'll always get the max drawdown by having the pre-charge on the air-head (bladder tank or single compartment galvy) as close as possible to the kick-in of the pressure switch, but it's best to allow a bit of margin for pressure-switch response variances as the switch parts wear over time. This is why the manufacturer's recommendations are for 2 psi less than kick-in pressure. And now you know firsthand because you have real experience to prove the physical laws of the situation.
    Speaking FROM EXPERIENCE with pump control valves + deep wells +bladder pressure tanks.

    Which if you noticed the 15 psi differential and the cavaet I mentioned and knew anything about it, and the specifications/technical information for PCVs you'd KNOW.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    1,131

    Default Re: Well Pump question

    GIGO.....as always, folks.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    731

    Default Re: Well Pump question

    Quote Originally Posted by bunker45 View Post
    Thanks for the help guys. The attached links helped much. Through testing and such, I am sure the bladder has a tear in it. I will be replacing the tank next week. Thanks for the help.
    chuck
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue RidgeParkway View Post
    chuck,

    You're welcome, and am glad you found the linkS helpful.

    if you had water spurting out of the shrader valve at the top of a bladder tank that's a given. but the symptoms as first described could have been bad pressure switch or bad settings and a leaking check valve. also could have been from a pressure tank being over charged.

    One more thing though, your differential is 15...(cut on 35 cut off 50). Most pumps and tanks are set up for a 20 differential, and the only times I'm familiar with that differential being intentionally set lower than 18-20 is when you have a choke or pump control valve or a slow start speed pump, point being is that when you do intentionally have a 15 differential you usually have a reason for it (unless its a bad pressure switch or someone messed around with the wrong screw setting one screw adjusts the pressure up or down both cut-in and cut-out equally with the same differential, the other screw only adjusts the cut-off presure usually only +/- 5-10 psi) if this was done on purpose (15 differential for a pump flow control valve) then USUALLY you also are supposed to charge your bladder tank with LESS pressure - so the usual tank manufacturer recommendation of letting the air charge in the empty tank to be 2 psi lower than the cut-on pressure switch setting would actually be needed to be charged even lower like 5-7 lbs lower than the cut-on pressure so you'd need to keep that in mind if that is the case. if somebody did this to compensate for a bad checkvalve , now would be the time to replace the bad checkvalve too. dirty contacts in the switch can be cleaned. don't do any adjustments on the pressure switch or try to clean the contacts unless you've verified power is off and confirmed with a meter.

    having the tank charge too high will reduce the volume of water that can be in the tank and decrease the drawdown time.

    when the differential is less you also decrease the drawdown time.

    less drawdown means the pump will have to cycle even for less water volume use - it also means the cycle will be shorter so not able to keep running for continuous use.

    having the charge too high in the bladder tank will cause the bladder to fail sooner.

    even if your old set up didn't have one you should also have a pressure release valve installed. its something used to be skipped with residential systems with bladder tanks (and often overlooked by DIYers replacing old style tanks with bladder tanks) but shouldn't be. pressure switch contacts have been known to weld closed and tanks have exploded. the little diaphrams in the pressure switches can fail to.

    a new pressure switch cost about $20 (unless you've got the kind with a lever out the side if you do say so because these have to be reset a special way) a pressure release valve even less.

    a bladder replacement or a bladder tank replacement is an ideal time to replace a pressure switch if necessary to do so, and an ideal time to add a pressure release valve if the prior set up did not have one.
    Quote Originally Posted by ****hiller View Post
    GIGO.....as always, folks.
    You're welcome Chuck, Glad you found the linkS and information helpful.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    455

    Default Re: Well Pump question

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue RidgeParkway View Post
    chuck,

    You're welcome, and am glad you found the linkS helpful.

    if you had water spurting out of the shrader valve at the top of a bladder tank that's a given. but the symptoms as first described could have been bad pressure switch or bad settings and a leaking check valve. also could have been from a pressure tank being over charged.

    One more thing though, your differential is 15...(cut on 35 cut off 50). Most pumps and tanks are set up for a 20 differential, and the only times I'm familiar with that differential being intentionally set lower than 18-20 is when you have a choke or pump control valve or a slow start speed pump, point being is that when you do intentionally have a 15 differential you usually have a reason for it (unless its a bad pressure switch or someone messed around with the wrong screw setting one screw adjusts the pressure up or down both cut-in and cut-out equally with the same differential, the other screw only adjusts the cut-off presure usually only +/- 5-10 psi) if this was done on purpose (15 differential for a pump flow control valve) then USUALLY you also are supposed to charge your bladder tank with LESS pressure - so the usual tank manufacturer recommendation of letting the air charge in the empty tank to be 2 psi lower than the cut-on pressure switch setting would actually be needed to be charged even lower like 5-7 lbs lower than the cut-on pressure so you'd need to keep that in mind if that is the case. if somebody did this to compensate for a bad checkvalve , now would be the time to replace the bad checkvalve too. dirty contacts in the switch can be cleaned. don't do any adjustments on the pressure switch or try to clean the contacts unless you've verified power is off and confirmed with a meter.

    having the tank charge too high will reduce the volume of water that can be in the tank and decrease the drawdown time.

    when the differential is less you also decrease the drawdown time.

    less drawdown means the pump will have to cycle even for less water volume use - it also means the cycle will be shorter so not able to keep running for continuous use.

    having the charge too high in the bladder tank will cause the bladder to fail sooner.

    even if your old set up didn't have one you should also have a pressure release valve installed. its something used to be skipped with residential systems with bladder tanks (and often overlooked by DIYers replacing old style tanks with bladder tanks) but shouldn't be. pressure switch contacts have been known to weld closed and tanks have exploded. the little diaphrams in the pressure switches can fail to.

    a new pressure switch cost about $20 (unless you've got the kind with a lever out the side if you do say so because these have to be reset a special way) a pressure release valve even less.

    a bladder replacement or a bladder tank replacement is an ideal time to replace a pressure switch if necessary to do so, and an ideal time to add a pressure release valve if the prior set up did not have one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue RidgeParkway View Post
    Speaking FROM EXPERIENCE with pump control valves + deep wells +bladder pressure tanks.

    Which if you noticed the 15 psi differential and the cavaet I mentioned and knew anything about it, and the specifications/technical information for PCVs you'd KNOW.

    More horse's ptooties heard from.

    You haven't actually convinced yourself(selves) that your

    own wild imaginations, fraudulent creations and inventions are

    actualy TRUE have you???

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    731

    Default Re: Well Pump question

    You're welcome Chuck, Glad you found the linkS and information helpful.

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