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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    455

    Default Re: outlets and junction box

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue RidgeParkway View Post
    The Original poster asked a vague question about outlets off a junction box for a newly constructed wall. Lets reserve assumptive discussions about receptacle placement (not the same thing! an outlet is not necessarily a receptacle), etc.unless and until the OP indicates THAT is what he is asking about and the characteristics of this newly constructed wall (kitchen, bathroom, free-standing garage, mobile home, commercial office, etc.)..
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue RidgeParkway View Post
    Unless its a local rule/ammendment that's just bogus. Name the jurisdiction, inspector and citation. Your not being able to fathom the general Code rule for regular dwelling units, I'll reserve comment. I'll also reserve comment on your personal attacks as well as your "belief" system(s). However, regarding the NEC you are not interpreting nor applying the the minimum rule correctly.

    Receptacles 12' apart allow for no point on the wall being greater than 6' from a receptacle: that's the NEC rule. Wisconsin uses the NEC. Portable Lamps (UL 153) have cords, if your cord is too short get an extension or replace the cord with a longer one. If you want a 3rd lamp closer to your lamp 1 location than you can accomodate by pluging it into receptacle 2 location, plug it into the same outlet location as your lamp 1, duplex receptacles are the norm. Your decorating concerns aside, the code is a minimum rule. It is not a design nor a decorating guide.

    2008 NEC:

    210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section
    provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere re-
    ceptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section
    shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:

    • (1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
    • (2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
    • (3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
    • (4) Located more than 1.7 in (5-1/2 ft) above the floor
    Permanently installed electric baseboard heaters equipped
    with factory-installed receptacle outlets or outlets provided as
    a separate assembly by the manufacturer shall be permitted as
    the required outlet or outlets for the wall space utilized by
    such permanently installed heaters. Such receptacle outlets
    shall not be connected to the heater circuits.
    FPN: Listed baseboard heaters include instructions that may not permit their installation below receptacle outlets.
    (A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room,
    dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom,
    bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of
    dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accor-
    dance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1)
    through (A)(3).

    (1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no
    point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall
    space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet. (That's 12 ft apart!!!)

    (2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall

    include the following:
    • (1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings.
    • (2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels
    • (3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as free-standing bar-type counters or railings
    (3) Floor Receptacles. Receptacle outlets in floors shall
    not be counted as part of the required number of receptacle
    outlets unless located within 450 mm (18 in.) of the wall.

    More horse's ptooties heard from.

    You haven't actually convinced yourself(selves) that your

    own wild imaginations, fraudulent creations and inventions are

    actualy TRUE have you???

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Shamokin, Pa.
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: outlets and junction box

    Quote Originally Posted by jkirk View Post
    i think we found our new lionhearted....

    if i remember correctly, a max of 12 ' apart for outlets within dwelling spaces such as living rooms and bedrooms,

    for kitchens, there must be a recepticle every 4ft of counter space. and they must be a gfci if within 3' of a water source


    the simples way to ask the original question is to say how many outlets + lights can be on one circuit without overloading

    by having outlets closer together, obviously you will create more outlets which in turn means more circuits at the panel. by not knowing how many outlets you can have on a circuit and not knowing how to check how many are on it could create a risk of fire or overloading a panel. Which has happened, i know this not by google but from electricians i know who have seen it first hand and had to rewire entire houses after it has happened


    when it comes to do it yourself projects there are limits to which diy'ers should go, when personal saftey and put the building at risk of fire, flooding, severe structural damage consult or hire a professional. looking things up ****** can help but there is no way of knowing the persons crudentials are true. theres nothing more assuring than having a certified Professional in your home, directly looking at what you want done.
    I tend to agree with what you are posting. But it has been my experience when homeowners run short of outlets they use extension cords. Like those crappy 18 gauge brown or white useless items. Now that is what I want heating up my carpets.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    731

    Default Re: outlets and junction box

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie_Fergler View Post
    Sorry, but if you have to ask that, please hire a professional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie_Fergler View Post
    Sorry, but I have to disagree with your 6' rule that allows outlets to be 12' apart.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue RidgeParkway View Post
    The rule is a 12 foot rule for unbroken (by openings) walls for general purpose receptacles in dwelling units (residential occupancies) and six feet from openings in walls.
    210.52 is the article in the NEC that addresses this. There are closer spacings required for countertops and there are special rules and exceptions for special areas (foyers, hallways and bathrooms for example). The language changes depending upon the edition. Local ammendments can also alter the language. The original poster indicates he is in Wisconsin (location information on his profile).
    If you don't agree with the code who cares? You are allowed to have more frequent spacing, the code is a minimum requirement, it is NOT a design manual, and therefore it does not have any requirements for convenient receptacle placement. This is all up to the designer.
    The spacing is determined along a wall not an arc. Arcs, radius, etc. are used to determine proximity to hazards, for example the area near a sink that must be GFCI protected, etc. not in frequency or spacing of general purpose receptacles that is done by straight measurements where the wall meets the floor measured horizontally linear measurements at the floor so that no point on the wall is more than six feet from a receptacle. A sliding glass DOOR is not a wall it is an opening in the wall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie_Fergler View Post
    I can't fathom spacing outlets 12' apart. Nor would local inspectors allow it.
    Say you place table lamp 1 at an outlet. Table lamp 2 will be placed 12' away. Even if you would drag those two lamps together they are six feet away from each other. Not to mention placing a Wave radio or small TV in between the two lamps. How would that fit into all that and still be energized?.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie_Fergler View Post
    I tend to agree with what you are posting. But it has been my experience when homeowners run short of outlets they use extension cords. Like those crappy 18 gauge brown or white useless items. Now that is what I want heating up my carpets
    Excuses excuses! Not until the code is not only cited, but quoted, and you still continue to make up excuses do you finally admit your unfathomable lack of comprehension was your own personal shortcoming and are forced to admit you were wrong, but....you then again make up another wild
    excuse to dispute the code and justify your having been wrong, and your initial curt reply to the original poster on this string, good thing he didn't call upon YOU (self proclaimed "professional" electrician on your profile and on many posts) for assistance! ROAR!!

    By the way, the reference to an "18 gauge" extension cord was just ... RICH!! Stop already "Ernie_Fergler", you're embarassing yourself.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    7,048

    Default Re: outlets and junction box

    More accurately, RICH!! Stop already "Blue RidgeParkway", you're embarassing yourself.

    I suffer from CDO ... Its like OCD, but in alphabetical order, LIKE IT SHOULD BE!!!

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The deep South
    Posts
    459

    Default Re: outlets and junction box

    ROAR ? How appropriate .

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    1,131

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The Great White North
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: outlets and junction box

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue RidgeParkway View Post
    You jump in with "if I remember correctly" after two of us already stated what the code was and I even QUOTED IT. You didn't "remember" anything about the National Electrical Code canadian.

    YOU obviously have no idea what you are talking about! Overloading a circuit has nothing to do anything hinted at by the OPs question, and has nothing to do with the number of receptacles or other outlets allowed on a general branch circuit for a dwelling. Your trying to stretch into the small appliance circuit territory, dedicated circuits and lighting circuits in a Kitchen in the US in an area governed by adoption of the NEC is equally lame, ignorant and flawed. Circuit overload protection has nothing to do with the number or frequency of the placement of outlets and nothing to do with the fill capacity allowed for junction boxes.

    Stick to fly dumping and sharing your parent's basement "apartment" with your brother.
    Well ...... jkirk is correct in saying there is a limit .... at least up here.

    The maximum over-current device permitted for

    lights and receptacles is 15 amperes (fuse or circuit

    breaker) and a maximum of 12 receptacles or

    lights or a combination of lights and

    receptacles ...... may be connected to each 15

    ampere branch circuit.


    He was also correct in saying .... 12 feet is the maximum spacing between receptacles
    "" an ounce of perception -- a pound of obscure "
    - Rush

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The Great White North
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: outlets and junction box

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue RidgeParkway View Post
    Unless its a local rule/ammendment that's just bogus. Name the jurisdiction, inspector and citation. Your not being able to fathom the general Code rule for regular dwelling units, I'll reserve comment. I'll also reserve comment on your personal attacks as well as your "belief" system(s). However, regarding the NEC you are not interpreting nor applying the the minimum rule correctly.

    Receptacles 12' apart allow for no point on the wall being greater than 6' from a receptacle: that's the NEC rule. Wisconsin uses the NEC. Portable Lamps (UL 153) have cords, if your cord is too short get an extension or replace the cord with a longer one. If you want a 3rd lamp closer to your lamp 1 location than you can accomodate by pluging it into receptacle 2 location, plug it into the same outlet location as your lamp 1, duplex receptacles are the norm. Your decorating concerns aside, the code is a minimum rule. It is not a design nor a decorating guide.


    Extension cords should only be considered as temporary use .... anything outside of that is irresponsible to suggest otherwise.
    "" an ounce of perception -- a pound of obscure "
    - Rush

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The Great White North
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: outlets and junction box

    So ... would this be allowed?

    The red points are the receptacle placements,


    "" an ounce of perception -- a pound of obscure "
    - Rush

  10. #40
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Pacific Northwet
    Posts
    1,605

    Default Re: outlets and junction box

    No, canuk, not as I interpret the code requirements. There is a 2 foot range along your walls that is between 6 and 7 feet from the nearest outlet (no, my math isn't funny), which is not permissible. Now, if on the long wall the outlet was only 10 feet from the corner, that WOULD be permissible. Four feet from the corner along the long wall is 6 feet from the outlet on the short wall.

    Another poster lamented that the inspector made him place a floor outlet between two sliding glass doors. This is because the fixed panels of the doors are considered usable wall space and hence must have an outlet within reach. You are not permitted to cross a doorway or opening to reach an outlet in order to meet the coed requirements. In my opinion, his inspector had a correct interpretation of the code. Now if that poster had arranged the doors so the sliding panels were adjacent, no floor outlet would have been necessary.

    canuk, do they use the NEC in Canada, too, or does Canada have its own code? I know that the electrical system is nearly identical to that in the US.

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